Have any of what you call “fascists” in the Ukraine advocated or done those things?
Though I would say annexing territory is not part of what makes a fascist. Merely what certain fascists did.
From the fact that, of the two sides, you have apparently chosen only to “worry” about the one?
What it does, is demonstrate that having right-wing nationalists around isn’t a particularly rational reason to go chicken-little on us.
Ditto. Various groups can be smeared for the bad shit that went down in the last century. Why not look to what they are actually doing right now, and worry about that instead?
I know, I know, because by any rational measure, that would condemn Russia and its sympathizers, not Ukraine. I mean besides that.
Sure. Well, that an suppressing the press, murdering journalists, indulging in sham “referendums” and the like. So far, Putin hasn’t actually massacred entire peoples, no. Nor do I think he’s likely to - other than those who get wasted should his aggressions break out into open warfare.
And the evidence that the Ukrainian ultra-nationalist fringe is, as you put it, “Attempting to physically exterminate entire peoples” is exactly … ? What, nothing? I thought so.
What, exactly, are you “worried” about? Spell it out. Is your concern that these ultra-nationalists are planning some sort of pogrom or massacre? As in “Attempting to physically exterminate entire peoples”? Because right now, that ain’t looking very likely.
MCain is quoted as saying, “We must commit to the ultimate return of Crimea to Ukraine, just as we promised to the so called captive that they would eventually be free of Soviet domination.” Would Putin’s critics in this thread agree with him? Because basically he’s saying that the Crimeans should be returned to Ukrainian rule even if the great majority of the people are completely opposed to such a return.
What sort of ‘liberation’ would this be?
Well, I suppose the argument would be they should return to Ukraine and then they could go through a referendum not done under Russian occupation.
Well, if we’re committed to returning Crimea to Ukraine “just as we promised to the so called captive that they would eventually be free of Soviet domination”, then it would be an empty, meaningless commitment.
…And with the option of independence.
Well, if it’s actually true that the majority of people in the Crimea want to break away and join the Russians, then all it would mean is another vote (this time without the Russians blockading Ukrainian military bases or ports, and without Russian troops on the streets of the major cities in the Crimea…stuff like that). So, it would just be a more above board validation of their actual desire to break away.
Personally, I think McCain is blowing a lot of hot air. There really is not much the US can or would do to force the Russians to take a step back at this point. It’s pretty much a done deal, slimy as this whole affair has been. All the US can do at this point is move forward…which, to me, is to get the Euros to impose as harsh sanctions as they will stomach (translation: not very harsh, considering how hard sanctions would hurt our European cousins), and perhaps try and move the rest of the Ukraine more into the Western European sphere of influence, maybe allow them to join NATO.
There is more the US could do though to bolster European will. They could open up American oil exports, for one. If they wanted to go nuts they could promise funds to offset European economic damage done by a sanction war.
It may very well be that a properly constituted referendum undertaken by a fair voting process with a question that clearly offered the alternative between staying part of Ukraine and joining Russia, undertaken under the supervision of neutral referees in the absence of armed intimidation by any faction would have decided in favour of joining Russia.
However, that’s not what we have, not even close. Until such a time as this exists, the “referendum” held under Russian guns, with a question that did not offer a return to the status quo, unsupervised by any neutral parties, is rightfully regarded by every world power save Russia as competely illegitimate, and its siezure as foreign aggression - not the will of the indigenous population.
Under these circumstances, the only right answer is to work to undo the aggression. To do otherwise simply legitimizes future aggressions by Russia (and countries like Russia) - there are lots of countries that have ethnic Russians in them.
The notion that every seperatist group ought to be given a mandate for a referendum to seperate is unworkable - look at Russia itself: there are several Russian provinces that, if allowed, would seperate. In reality, what it means is every group that has the backing of a power willing to make a credible military threat has such a mandate - making it open season for strong countries to prey on the weak. This is doubly true where the strong don’t even make a pretense, as in Crimea, of making the vote in any way procedurally fair.
As I have repeated many, many, many times, I do worry about fascism all over Europe.
Were the fraction of fascist representation in the Ukrainian government to become “overwhelming,” no doubt Ukraine’s minorities would be put through a living hell: If not exterminated outright (very unlikely, considering the fascists would have the eyes of the world on them), then harshly oppressed and/or driven out the country.
I am well aware of the fact that Communists “were also known for exterminating peoples.” Were Communists growing in power and influence in Ukraine or elsewhere, I would worry about that, too.
Yes. They have most certainly advocated such things, and they have most certainly glorified those who, in the past, did such things.
Agreed.
Where have you gotten the idea that I only worry about “the one”? I worry about both Ukrainian fascism and Russian aggression.
As I said: That were the fraction of fascist representation in the Ukrainian government to become “overwhelming,” no doubt Ukraine’s minorities would be put through a living hell: If not exterminated outright (very unlikely, considering the fascists would have the eyes of the world on them), then harshly oppressed and/or driven out the country.
That is absurd. You accuse Russian leadership had planned and wanted Georgia to attack with heavy artillery and armored units and to kill some Russian Federation troops plus civilians who were sitting ducks for the kind of weapons and armor Sakaashvilli sent into South Ossetia that night. I see you are capable of believing anything about Putin if it makes him out to be evil. Deliberately using his own troops as sacrificial bait in order to be delighted about attacking the idiot Sakaashvilli is really out there.
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As I have repeated many, many, many times, I do worry about fascism all over Europe.
[/QUOTE]
Um…ok. I suppose given the record of many European nations it’s a valid worry. Why are you more worried about the Ukraine? The percentage of ‘fascists’ in their government is on par with many other European nations and is really an artifact of how many countries over there do representational elections instead of the winner take all method in the US (which is why we have 2 big parties and many smaller parties that don’t ever get elected, while Europeans have a lot of 3rd parties with a few seats of representation, even of extreme parties like actual fascists…or communists).
That all seems extremely fanciful. Do you worry about fascists becoming overwhelming in France too, and then exterminating everyone? How about in the UK? I know you said you worry about it in the rest of Europe, but it seems you are more worried about the Ukraine for some reason.
While you are worrying about this seemingly low priority outcome, you seem more complacent with what Russia is actually doing, to get back to the comparison with deeds verse possibilities.
You’d have a point (of sorts) if fascists were growing in power in the Ukraine or anywhere else…and if the fascists in said country had a track record of actually doing all of those dastardly things. I’m not seeing where this worry is coming from though, at least wrt the Ukraine…while I DO see a formerly communist and still pretty autocratic nation actually doing some fairly bad shit.
But the Pro-EU protesters did not move much until the Molotov Cocktails started flying. So a pro-Russian protest in Kiev would be stopped if the use of Molotov Cocktails were to be introduced. Is that how it would work?
That could be an option but the vote would have to be limited to Crimean citizens participation alone. But that most likely would also bring a result that Crimea rejoins Russia without the glory of bashing Putin. So the Ukraine Constitution will not likely change to ever give Crimeans the right of self-determination.
The glory of bashing Putin is easily had, if you don’t live in a certain country where you get arrested or mysteriously murdered for it.
Putin has some more good advice for those interested in more choice for all of Ukrain’es citizens.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/putin-signs-decree-crimea-independent
Why must all of Ukraine whatever way the Molotov Cocktail throwing crowd wants?
It makes sense that the West of Ukraine could have close ties to the EU and the East of Ukraine could have close ties to Russia. Why not let the free market and regional elections decide things instead of all this ‘winner take all’ crap that has been going on since 1992?
Who has Putin ‘murdered’ for bashing him? Do you have a case?
Do I have to say it again? I worry about fascism all over Europe.
Am I “more worried about the Ukraine”? More worried about Ukrainian fascism than about Icelandic fascism? Yes. More worried about Ukrainian fascism than about Greek fascism? Nah, about the same level.
Really? Fairly few European countries have fascists in their governments, thank God, though lots of European countries have fascist (or quasi-fascist) parties on the rise.
Getting more and more power and influence, and so making life shitty for us minorities? Yes, in both France and the UK and plenty of other countries. “Exterminating everyone”? No.
This thread is about Ukraine, so that’s why I write more about that, than, say, The Golden Dawn down in Greece - a party whose growing influence also worries me.
They are.
Cite for where I accused Putin of murdering anyone?
I wrote, "Just to be clear CarnalK made the untrue claim that I have painted the Ukrainians as fascists. I have proven the opposite is my view on that."
On 03-17-2014 at 03:19 PM CarnalK had this response:
So now you admit that I did write that the Russians are exaggerating the presence of Fascists in the Ukraine’s government and protest movement. So why did you write this?
Yes I said the Russian version of fascists is exaggerated. I also said they were wrong. So why on earth would you convert those statements into this:
03-15-2014 07:31 PM CarnalK wrote:
I have never said anything close to ‘there was a collapse of law that let fascists takeover’. Why would you say that I did?
Don’t you try to base your comments about what posters write on what people actually write? If not, why not?
On 03-17-2014 at 06:59 PM You wrote exactly this: