Ryan_Liam: Shut the fuck up, you stinking pile of shit

[Ryan_Liam]

'Nuff said.

Fuck you, if I want to position myself on this conflict by supporting that administrations efforts and my own Governments efforts in bringing a viable and democratic state to Iraq, then I will, but that no way positions me in the ‘conservative abortion banning, homosexual marriage banning’ side of the camp, I support the Iraqi Government, I support their efforts and our Governments efforts to succeed in that region.

It’s not a game at all, you ignorant twat.

I know it’s not you fuck, it’s a figure of speech, what I’m saying is that the options between us succeeding and allowing the insurgents to succeed in toppling the Iraqi government are zero sum. One won’t be in place without the other achieving victory.

Way to miss the point, idiot.

Eventually you finally mention it, albeit in passing, amidst much other unrelated verbiage:

You know what I was getting at, if my ‘assumptions’ and ‘predictions’ about the future of the Iraqi State are wrong, then you’re right, in which you’ll be happy at proving me wrong, not happy in the knowledge that Iraq had gone to hell in a handbasket.

Why should that make me happy? Frankly, being right on Iraq carries with it all the joy of eating a shit sandwich. And if my being right means someone else I have a low regard for is wrong, that doesn’t exactly wash out the bad taste.

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but people are getting killed in horrendous ways over there. I try not to think about that anymore than I have to, but when I do, it isn’t exactly cause for happiness.

Woah woah woah, slow down their missy, that’s not what I implied, I implied that you would be happy that I would of been proven wrong, and you would of been proven right.

Ryan, I would be thrilled to death if you were right on Iraq. Nobody is saying, “yippee, there still is death and destruction in Iraq and I was right!” If tomorrow the Shiites and Sunnis and Kurds start dancing cheek to cheek and singing kumbaya, I’d rejoice with everyone else. But how long must it go on before we say “hey, we tried. Let’s cut the losses and not throw good bodies after bad”?

Since we invaded Iraq, since as alot of you opposed the war on reasons of faulty intelligence, bad planning etc etc, we at least owe it to the Iraqi people and the Government in place to leave it in the best possible position concerning the insurgency, the political and economic factors. And I believe that can only be done by a continued Coalition effort to help the Iraqi Government.
So yes, oppose the initial invasion, yes, criticise the way in which planning and effective counter insurgency operations go and the way in which the Government is able to actually govern, I have no problem in that, or debating about it, but please do not think that by us withdrawing, right now, that it will get any more better than it is.
However some posters seem to have to want to bitch at me and pit me because I have a different view on this war, and are pretty eager to paint me as ‘Prezidents lap Dawg LOL111’ and then disregard anything I have to say on the subject because of that implicaton.

So hurrah, I finally got pitted, enjoy the rest of the show

[wring]

@Ryan_Liam

, I implied that you would be happy that I would of been proven wrong, and you would of been proven right.

ya know what? you don’t know RT at all if you think that he (or any of us) are happy to be proven right about this clusterfuck.

For me (and I suspect RT, who I"m certain can articulate the point quite well hisownself, but hell, I’m here), way back then, there were folks talking the party line. You know, about ‘the proof may just be a mushroom cloud’ and assuring us that when certain governmental officials said shit like “slam dunk” and “we know where they (WoMD) are”, those governmental officials weren’t just blowing collective smoke up our asses, surely they actually knew what they claimed to know, and we (us doubters) should trust said officials.

then the invasion came. and it appeared that us doubting Thomases, were, well, pretty fucking right on the money: no WoMD (or certainly none poised to harm us), yes, a huge cluster fuck of a situation (as opposed to the “2 weeks to invade, a month or so to tidy up, hearts, flowers, parades, all is good, oil is flowing to us, yadayadayada”)

and somehow, those same folks who were so fucking certain they were right way back then, instead of admitting, well, gosh darn, maybe they just didn’t have a really good handle on how that situation would play itself out, still have the fucking arrogance to suggest that now, NOW they have it right and the rest of us should just shut up and go about our business.

You were fucking wrong back then and still are. and people better than you are paying the ultimate price for your fucking stupid arrogance and self delusion.

[Excalibre]

The bottom line here is what I’ve been saying about Ryan_Liam all along. He supports this war because he doesn’t give a shit about all the people who’ve gotten killed. They don’t include him, so he just doesn’t care. And he makes the ridiculous claim that liberals are happy to see the war go south because he simply can’t conceive that anyone else might care about all the dead.

[Ludovic]

@Ryan_Liam

I know it’s not you fuck, it’s a figure of speech, what I’m saying is that the options between us succeeding and allowing the insurgents to succeed in toppling the Iraqi government are zero sum. One won’t be in place without the other achieving victory.

Sorry, try again. It may be possible that we achieve victory after 12 years an 10’s of thousands of U.S. casualties, but have all of that be negated by a civil war after we pull out which leaves the casualty count, to use a blunt instrument, worse than the lives we put into it. Not zero sum. Insurgents win by a bit, those who temporarily benefitted from stability win by a bit, U.S. loses by a LOT. Not zero-sum.

Or we could cut a deal with the insurgents where they are incorporated into the government, and we pull out with lucrative contracts for our oil companies. Insurgents win by a little, Iraqi gov’t loses by a little, U.S. wins by a lot. Not zero-sum.

This is fun! Endless possibilities!

The sad thing is, though, is that continued violence of any sort is not zero sum. Nearly everyone loses.

[Giraffe]

Ludovic, either Ryan is going to get your point and maybe learn something or he won’t or maybe he’ll go post in some other thread. No matter how you slice it, this thread is a zero sum game.

[Shayna]

@Squink

That one just Keeps on Giving

Oh. My. G-d.

[Cheney] added: “We didn’t anticipate . . the devastation that 30 years of Saddam’s rule had wrought, if you will, on the psychology of the Iraqi people.”

Then
You
Shouldn’t
Have
Started
A
War
In
Those
People’s
Country!

You stupid, heartless, thoughtless, selfish, evil, fucking asshole.

Every time I think my contempt cannot possibly grow any deeper, one of these jackasses opens their mouth.

[Revtim]

@Excalibre

And he makes the ridiculous claim that liberals are happy to see the war go south because he simply can’t conceive that anyone else might care about all the dead.

I haven’t really been following this thread, so I do not necessary agree or disagree that this applies to to the pittee, but I think this is a very good point at least about most other war supporters (at this point where it’s clear Iraq was not a threat to us at the time). I think there is a serious lack of empathy, both towards folks who do not support the war, and certainly towards those who have suffered because of the war.

Looking back, it should have been clear from beginning. Somehow the war was supposed to both be for the Iraqi people, and also to fight the terrorists over there instead of here. I hope nobody does anything for me that results in warfare in my home.

[rjung]

@BobLibDem

Not to single out Ryan, but the adherents of the Bush cult can’t face the reality that Iraq is FUBAR. They remind me of that knight from the Monty Python sketch. As blood spurts from where his arms used to be: “it’s just a flesh wound!” As he lay on the ground, minus all four limbs “Get back here and I’ll gum ya”. Dudes, face it. Your Dear Leader was responsible for one of the greatest blunders in world history. It ISN’T getting better and in all likelihood it NEVER will.

What I find morbidly twisted is that the Bush Apologists(*) are apparently using the Tinkerbell Theory of Foreign Policy vis-a-vis Iraq – that is, the war would be a bloodless victory for the US if everyone simply clapped hard enough.

“Hey, stop printing all those negative articles about the Iraq war! You’re supposed to be clapping! Keep thinking happy thoughts, you un-American traitor!”

(* = Term chosen specificlly to piss off Shodan )

It’s a sad state of affirs nowadays when your political affiliation can be determined by whether you want to engage in wishful fantasies, or be a member of the reality-based coalition.

[Ryan_Liam]

You were fucking wrong back then and still are. and people better than you are paying the ultimate price for your fucking stupid arrogance and self delusion.

Hey, you dumb fuck, I didn’t support the reasons for the war in the first place, but as I see it, we broke it, WE fix it.

The bottom line here is what I’ve been saying about Ryan_Liam all along. He supports this war because he doesn’t give a shit about all the people who’ve gotten killed. They don’t include him, so he just doesn’t care. And he makes the ridiculous claim that liberals are happy to see the war go south because he simply can’t conceive that anyone else might care about all the dead.

I didn’t know RTFirefly = Entire ‘Libural’ (Because that’s how gung-ho sabre rattling war supporters say it right?:rolleyes: ) establishment. Whatever I’ve said to him is to him, not a broad generalisation of everyone.

As for the piece about me not caring, you know jack shit about who I am or how I feel about what’s happening in Iraq, so fuck you. The reasons to me caring about what happens to the people of Iraq is so much why I’m against withdrawal and abandoning of the Iraqi government.

[bup]

@Ryan_Liam

I know it’s not [a zero sum game] you fuck, it’s a figure of speech, what I’m saying is that the options between us succeeding and allowing the insurgents to succeed in toppling the Iraqi government are zero sum. One won’t be in place without the other achieving victory.

‘Either choice A or Choice B, but not both’ is not what zero-sum means either.

A zero sum game is a situation where the sum of everybody’s outcomes is zero. Some may win, some may lose, something something sing the blues but the sum of all players ‘winning’s’ is zero. Like a hand of poker.

Or, as giraffe said, net gains and losses in the House of Reps.

[RTFirefly]

@Ryan_Liam

Fuck you, if I want to position myself on this conflict by supporting that administrations efforts and my own Governments efforts in bringing a viable and democratic state to Iraq, then I will, but that no way positions me in the ‘conservative abortion banning, homosexual marriage banning’ side of the camp, I support the Iraqi Government, I support their efforts and our Governments efforts to succeed in that region.

Well, I had been idly wondering what ‘Bush Occultist’ meant, but figured the main thing was that anyone who categorized themselves thusly had to be quite ‘out of it’ in some way.

At any rate, none of that is relevant to why you’re being Pitted, as I and others have repeatedly pointed out. You’re not being Pitted for your heroic defense of this Administration’s alleged efforts to turn Iraq into a democracy (who knows if that’s what they intend, and even if they do, who knows if their means have any relevance to the end?), but for suggesting it would make me happy to see Iraq go down the tubes.

You know what I was getting at, if my ‘assumptions’ and ‘predictions’ about the future of the Iraqi State are wrong, then you’re right, in which you’ll be happy at proving me wrong, not happy in the knowledge that Iraq had gone to hell in a handbasket.

wring has already pretty much said what I would say.

Woah woah woah, slow down their missy, that’s not what I implied, I implied that you would be happy that I would of been proven wrong, and you would of been proven right.

I don’t know about you, but it’s hard for me to separate that from the reality on the ground. Being right, in this case, sucks. The usual joy I get from winning an exercise in intellectual jousting has been pretty much absent in the debates over Iraq since the war began.

Since we invaded Iraq, since as alot of you opposed the war on reasons of faulty intelligence, bad planning etc etc, we at least owe it to the Iraqi people and the Government in place to leave it in the best possible position concerning the insurgency, the political and economic factors. And I believe that can only be done by a continued Coalition effort to help the Iraqi Government.
So yes, oppose the initial invasion, yes, criticise the way in which planning and effective counter insurgency operations go and the way in which the Government is able to actually govern, I have no problem in that, or debating about it, but please do not think that by us withdrawing, right now, that it will get any more better than it is.

You’re missing even your own point here.

Whatever course of action is best, is just plain impossible to determine if we don’t admit how things are actually going.

If, in evaluating what to do, you assume things are much better than they are, then at some point, your future plans will likely rely on being in that better position. And because you’re not, you’re undermining your plan.

This is what the leaders of this country are apparently doing. And it not only hurts America, but it makes a botch of what minuscule chance remains to help the Iraqis as well.

[Gala_Matrix_Fire]

This is slightly off-topic, but I’ve been wondering about it…

Ryan_Liam, in a General Questions thread about military web forums I asked you if you had served in the military and your answer was: “yeah?”

Would you please clarify if you have served in the military, and what you meant by answering a question in the affirmative with a question mark? Thanks.

[Ryan_Liam]

@bluethree

This is slightly off-topic, but I’ve been wondering about it…

Ryan_Liam, in a General Questions thread about military web forums I asked you if you had served in the military and your answer was: “yeah?”

Would you please clarify if you have served in the military, and what you meant by answering a question in the affirmative with a question mark? Thanks.

Sorry, yeah I remember thatpost what I thought you meant was it ok for someone who was a military enthusiast to of been in the military, hence my yeah with a question mark. Apologies for the mix up.

RTFirefly
At any rate, none of that is relevant to why you’re being Pitted, as I and others have repeatedly pointed out. You’re not being Pitted for your heroic defense of this Administration’s alleged efforts to turn Iraq into a democracy (who knows if that’s what they intend, and even if they do, who knows if their means have any relevance to the end?), but for suggesting it would make me happy to see Iraq go down the tubes.

I didn’t imply that you would be happy to see Iraq go down the tubes, only that you would be glad that I would be mistaken in my assertion that Iraq will succeed and overcome the violence.

If, in evaluating what to do, you assume things are much better than they are, then at some point, your future plans will likely rely on being in that better position. And because you’re not, you’re undermining your plan.

This is what the leaders of this country are apparently doing. And it not only hurts America, but it makes a botch of what minuscule chance remains to help the Iraqis as well.

Then you have to agree that constantly downgrading the progress Iraq has made can also be damaging to that effect.

[Marley23]

@kaylasdad99

Well? Was it?

No, but he thought that interpretation was funny.

[Voyager]

@Lord Ashtar

My question was more about how the U.S. had to remain in Germany for 12 years after the new government had been established to help keep the region stable. If you use that as a barometer, we’ll be in Iraq for quite a while.

In retrospect, I should’ve asked this question in another forum where people don’t feel the need to reply with snark just because of the forum. Good show, chap. :rolleyes:

We don’t have to worry about the Commies in Iraq, but we do have to worry about Iran. Maybe that is going to be the next excuse to stay.

I don’t know about US casualties in Germany after WW II, btw, but my dad was on occupation duty in Bavaria and Austria, and from his stories GIs had total freedom of movement without fear. He ran an officers’ club, and he had former SS troops working as waiters for him (a Jew) - so you can see that the security situation was considered to be pretty good.

[kaylasdad99]

@Ryan_Liam

Sorry, yeah I remember thatpost what I thought you meant was it ok for someone who was a military enthusiast to of been in the military, hence my yeah with a question mark. Apologies for the mix up.

Is it just me, or does that not clear up anything at all?

I’m sure it’s just me. I’m positive that everyone but me can see that Ryan Liam is positively SCREAMING that yes, he did serve in the military. Or not.

It’s just me, isnt it?

[Stuffy]

@kaylasdad99

Is it just me, or does that not clear up anything at all?

I’m sure it’s just me. I’m positive that everyone but me can see that Ryan Liam is positively SCREAMING that yes, he did serve in the military. Or not.

It’s just me, isnt it?

T’aint just you. I had a big case if the “whaaaaaat?”

[SteveG1]

I predict that within the next year or two, there will be some stupendous, immense, unfuckingbelievable revelation, complete with “documents” and “unassailable proof” (minus any real evidence) that Iran is planning to kill us all, and we must attack immediately. I expect it will follow the same boilerplate as Iraq did.

[Muffin]

@BrainGlutton

And may your tongue swell and your genitals wither!

Or as Sterne put it: "—Atque omnium coelestium virtutum, angelorum, archangelorum, thronorum, dominationum, potestatuum, cherubin ac seraphin, & sanctorum patriarchum, prophetarum, & omnium apolstolorum & evangelistarum, & sanctorum innocentum, qui in conspectu Agni soli digni inventi sunt canticum cantare novum, et sanctorum martyrum et sanctorum confessorum, et sanctarum virginum, atque omnium simul sanctorum et electorum Dei,—Excommunicamus, et vel os s vel os anathematizamus hunc furem, vel hunc s malefactorem, N.N. et a liminibus sanctae Dei ecclesiae sequestramus, et aeternis vel i n suppliciis excruciandus, mancipetur, cum Dathan et Abiram, et cum his qui dixerunt Domino Deo, Recede a nobis, scientiam viarum tuarum nolumus: et ficut aqua ignis extinguatur lu- vel eorum cerna ejus in secula seculorum nisi resque- n n rit, et ad satisfactionem venerit. Amen. os Maledicat illum Deus Pater qui homi- os nem creavit. Maledicat illum Dei Filius qui pro homine passus est. Maledicat os illum Spiritus Sanctus qui in baptismo ef- os fusus est. Maledicat illum sancta crux, quam Christus pro nostra salute hostem triumphans ascendit. os Maledicat illum sancta Dei genetrix et os perpetua Virgo Maria. Maledicat illum sanctus Michael, animarum susceptor sa- os crarum. Maledicant illum omnes angeli et archangeli, principatus et potestates, omnisque militia coelestis. os Maledicat illum patriarcharum et prophetarum laudabilis numerus. Maledicat os illum sanctus Johannes Praecursor et Baptista Christi, et sanctus Petrus, et sanctus Paulus, atque sanctus Andreas, omnesque Christi apostoli, simul et caeteri discipuli, quatuor quoque evangelistae, qui sua praedicatione mundum universum converte- os runt. Maledicat illum cuneus martyrum et confessorum mirificus, qui Deo bonis operibus placitus inventus est. os Maledicant illum sacrarum virginum chori, quae mundi vana causa honoris Christi respuenda contempserunt. Male- os dicant illum omnes sancti qui ab initio mundi usque in finem seculi Deo dilecti inveniuntur. os Maledicant illum coeli et terra, et omnia sancta in eis manentia. i n n Maledictus sit ubicunque, fuerit, sive in domo, sive in agro, sive in via, sive in semita, sive in silva, sive in aqua, sive in ecclesia. i n Maledictus sit vivendo, moriendo,—- manducando, bibendo, esuriendo, sitiendo, jejunando, dormitando, dormiendo, vigilando, ambulando, stando, sedendo, jacendo, operando, quiescendo, mingendo, cacando, flebotomando. i n Maledictus sit in totis viribus corporis. i n Maledictus sit intus et exterius. i n i Maledictus sit in capillis; maledictus n i n sit in cerebro. Maledictus sit in vertice, in temporibus, in fronte, in auriculis, in superciliis, in oculis, in genis, in maxillis, in naribus, in dentibus, mordacibus, in labris sive molibus, in labiis, in guttere, in humeris, in harnis, in brachiis, in manubus, in digitis, in pectore, in corde, et in omnibus interioribus stomacho tenus, in renibus, in inguinibus, in femore, in genitalibus, in coxis, in genubus, in cruribus, in pedibus, et in unguibus.

Maledictus sit in totis compagibus membrorum, a vertice capitis, usque ad plantam pedis—non sit in eo sanitas."

[Ryan_Liam]

@kaylasdad99

Is it just me, or does that not clear up anything at all?

I’m sure it’s just me. I’m positive that everyone but me can see that Ryan Liam is positively SCREAMING that yes, he did serve in the military. Or not.

It’s just me, isnt it?

WTF? If that was the case (which it fucking isn’t, let’s get that clear now) then wouldn’t there be more claims as to me being in the military? It was a mistake, I know you’re itching to paint me as some sort of chickenhawk as someone so eloquently put it, but for Gods sake, give it a rest :rolleyes: