S.D. Gov'r "inclined" to ban abortions, shoves head up ass

[mhendo]

@SkipMagic

You misunderstand Catholic excommunication. When a Catholic is excommunicated, he or she is not considered an ex-Catholic by the Church; instead, the person is unable to receive the Eucharist and unable to particpate in other spiritual rituals. While strict, it’s not meant to be permanent; the goal is to get the Catholic back on the right track.

Those women are, indeed, Catholic.

Even if we leave all that aside for a minute, Updike’s “no true Scotsman”-type defense was still a pretty fucking lame response.

The post that he responded to was pointing out that many women who self-identify as Catholics, and who generally consider themselves members of the Catholic Church, still have abortions. That’s something that requires a more reasoned response than simply “Well, the Church doesn’t consider them true Catholics.”

[Syntropy]

…Okayyyyyyyyyy…

And that still doesn’t explain why abortion isn’t a responsible choice. All I can think is that you consider it an expediency, and you feel it’s necessary that the persons involved be punished for as long as possible. Please correct me if that’s not the case.

Also: unless you are able to somehow make the father gain 30-50 lbs, be out of work for at least 6 weeks, go through severe hormonal changes and a traumatic physical experience equal to childbirth, then the father isn’t going to be anywhere near under the same onus as the mother. Sorry. No matter how you slice it, it’s the woman that carries the majority of the burden.

[Updike]

@SkipMagic

You misunderstand Catholic excommunication. When a Catholic is excommunicated, he or she is not considered an ex-Catholic by the Church; instead, the person is unable to receive the Eucharist and unable to particpate in other spiritual rituals. While strict, it’s not meant to be permanent; the goal is to get the Catholic back on the right track.

Those women are, indeed, Catholic.

I don’t think so. The Church considers those who procure abortions in the same category as schismatics and heretics, i.e. outside of the Church.

I realize that running around asking for “cites” can be obnoxious, but in this case, I must ask for one.

[Guinastasia]

@Updike

I don’t think so. The Church considers those who procure abortions in the same category as schismatics and heretics, i.e. outside of the Church.

I realize that running around asking for “cites” can be obnoxious, but in this case, I must ask for one.

Straight from the Master

Strictly speaking, excommunication does not render you a non-Catholic. It merely means you’re a Catholic who’s been damned to hell. What’s more, it isn’t intended to permanently separate you from the church; rather, it’s a “medicinal” procedure, meant to make you see the error of your ways. If in fact you do become reconciled later, you won’t be rebaptized, just forgiven. In the eyes of the church, once a Catholic, always a Catholic. Irritating, I know, but as I say, this wasn’t set up to accommodate you.

[mhendo]

Here’s what Pope John Paul had to say to women who’ve had abortions in his Evangelium Vitae of 1995:

I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion. The Church is aware of the many factors which may have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You will come to understand that nothing is definitively lost and you will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord. With the friendly and expert help and advice of other people, and as a result of your own painful experience, you can be among the most eloquent defenders of everyone’s right to life. Through your commitment to life, whether by accepting the birth of other children or by welcoming and caring for those most in need of someone to be close to them, you will become promoters of a new way of looking at human life.

[mhendo]

Of course, that was Pope John Paul II

[Updike]

@mhendo

Here’s what Pope John Paul had to say to women who’ve had abortions in his Evangelium Vitae of 1995:

I was wrong, and I am sorry.

[Superdude]

@Aserrann

I have to ask… did you honestly expect that to not come up?

I expected it to come up.

But, in my mind, where each person stands on the “voluntary abortion” issue is immaterial. The issue should be the fact that the government is considering setting up the possiblity that a rapist can further torment his victim by being allowed visitation with the child that said victim is forced to carry.

[DianaG]

@Updike

No. If you get into a car accident, you’re expected to take responsibilty for the results. Like having the insurance that’s required by whatever state you live in. In any case, if you cause an accident, then you are responsible for the damages.

Why do you think that fucking should be exempt from responsibility?

So if you get into a car accident and are injured, should you be denied medical help? After all, that’s the chance you took. You’re just going to have to live with it.

And once again, your personal belief that having an abortion is evading responsibility does not make it so. I am, in fact, inclined to believe that your personal belief in anything is sufficient to cast doubt on it.

[Updike]

@DianaG

And once again, your personal belief that having an abortion is evading responsibility does not make it so.

But it is evading responsibility. How can you suggest otherwise?

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Updike

But it is evading responsibility. How can you suggest otherwise?

It is evading the responsibility of raising a child, and the physical effects of pregnancy and birth, and being able to live with that choice.

It is taking on the responsibility of the physical effects of abortion, and, depending on your beliefs, killing/removing a foetus/child/groups of cells/potential child, and being able to live with that choice.

Both also have the responsibility of making that choice, unless it is mandated one way or the other.

There is responsibility that is not taken on, correct. But to suggest that having an abortion is to avoid all responsibility is an inaccuracy.

[Der_Trihs]

@Updike

But it is evading responsibility. How can you suggest otherwise?

How is it not responsible? Woman is pregnant; that’s a problem. She get an abortion, and isn’t pregnant any more; problem solved. Responsibility in action.

[Guinastasia]

@Updike

But it is evading responsibility. How can you suggest otherwise?

How is it evading responsibility-you tell us. You’re the one making the claim, YOU prove it.

A child should not be a punishment.

[DianaG]

I don’t “suggest” otherwise. I am stating, as a woman, as a mother, as a human, and as someone who has been there, that having an abortion can be the most responsible thing to do.

Responsibility means accepting consequences for your actions. Sometimes the consequence of your actions is having to have an abortion. If you feel that’s an inadequate consequence, then there’s nothing I can say to convince you otherwise, but I pity the children you come into contact with, as you clearly see them as a fitting punishment for having sex.

[Updike]

@Revenant Threshold

There is responsibility that is not taken on, correct. But to suggest that having an abortion is to avoid all responsibility is an inaccuracy.

I disagree. The ultimate result of the sexual act is a child. IMHO, people should think about that before they engage in sex.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Updike

I disagree.

I don’t see why you disagree, based on that. Why don’t you think abortion is at all responsible?

The ultimate result of the sexual act is a child. IMHO, people should think about that before they engage in sex.

Unless, of course, you get an a abortion before it’s a child.

[Guinastasia]

@Updike

I disagree. The ultimate result of the sexual act is a child. IMHO, people should think about that before they engage in sex.

Many do. But birth control fails. Women get raped.

And sometimes, having a child is not fucking feasible.

[Updike]

@DianaG

Responsibility means accepting consequences for your actions.

Exactly. If those consequences involve a child, then become an actual human being and take care of the child.

Sometimes the consequence of your actions is having to have an abortion.

No one has to have an abortion.

[Guinastasia]

@Updike

Exactly. If those consequences involve a child, then become an actual human being and take care of the child.

No one has to have an abortion.

Not everyone WANTS or has the capability to BE a fucking parent. Not everyone wants or even CAN go through a pregnancy. No one HAS to have an abortion, but likewise, no one HAS to have a child.

[Updike]

@Guinastasia

Many do. But birth control fails. Women get raped.

And sometimes, having a child is not fucking feasible.

Feasible?

Feasible?

All children are a gift. Should we abort blind or deaf or handicapped children?