Sigh. Guess its time to update the bookshelf. Thanks Manda JO.
Errrmmm… sorry Manda JO, that might not have come out quite the way I intended it. blast this toneless medium
What I meant was: Thank you for your informative post, and I see to my own chagrin that some of my Mayan information may be out of date.
Cheers. 
Nope. I am not mistaking the Maya for Aztec or Toltecs. First there is very little evidence for Toltecs using human sacrifice. Yes the Aztec were into the sacrifice thing in a big way, but so were the Maya. Just check out the stela from sites like Copan and Tikal. Subjgated prisoners and people holding severed heads are a major theme. Chichen Itza is well known for being a site of major sacrifices.
What confused me was the comment that “Kings would wage wars with the main intent of collecting more prisoners to sacrifice”, and I thought that these * Wars of Flowers * were something that the Aztecs specifically were known for.
Sacrifices certainly seem to have been made at Chichen Itza but I also understood that site to be Mayan with Toltec influences as can be seen by the architectural styles as compared with the classic Mayan architecture such as at Palenque.
There are also several * Chac-Mool * – reclining humanoid statues used for sacrifices – at Chichen Itza which I didn’t understand to be classic Mayan, but rather used in heart sacrifice, and introduced by invading Mexican groups (such as the Toltecs) in the Post-Classic period.
I’m not sure what the evidence is for the Toltecs at Teotihuacan using human sacrifice but the origin of heart sacrifice has been attributed to them. I understand that it is probable that this style of sacrifice orginated in El Tajin, but then spread across Mesoamerica and was practised by the kings who claimed descent from the Toltecs.
Oh well, looks like I need to do some more reading on this.
Since the OP mentioned “Judeo-Christian faith”, I though I would mention that other religions also include(d) sacrifices as part of their rituals.
Muslims are still asked to perform an animal sacrifice, Nahr or Udhiya, when they accomplish their once-in-a-lifetime obligatory pilgrimage, the Hajj.
Also, sacrifices were known to exist in Ancient India and in greek and roman society. From Encyclopedia Britannica
Of course, in the USA we hear mostly about Santeria and its occasional animal offerings.
Also according to Encyclopedia Britannica, human sacrifice was practiced in Africa, Mexico, Egypt, the Middle East, India, Japan, China, Mexico, Peru, amongst the Celts, etc…
I personally don’t see that sacrificing an animal for a religious ritual is any more unenlightened than killing it to eat it. Except of course for the fact that since I’m an atheist I think it’s foolish to attempt to propitiate a non-existent god.
Ohh, I’d forgotten about them, the * Bog People * right?
Those very well preserved bodies that have been retrieved from peat bogs and show signs of having been ritually strangled.
<kind of an aside>
It is interesting how vestiges of these practices remain to this day. I remember reading that sacrifices were sometimes chosen by lot, such as by making bread or cake or somesuch and putting a bean in one portion. Whoever got the bean got the chop.
Later on, the “chop” became symbolic, they got chased around, exiled for the day, whatever.
The English tradition (I’m not sure if you do something similar in the US) of putting a silver sixpence in the Christmas pudding is a descendent of the bean in the cake method of choosing a scapegoat.
Makes one happy to be living in more civilized times… something like that could really spoil your Yuletide festival otherwise.
I’m sure that the chihuahuas are happier, too.
[little hijack]
IIRC the Aztecs had a total of 3 domesticated animals, of which one was dogs (which I’m not at all sure where chihuahuas) that they raised for food.
The question for 10 points – that can be redeemed for a piece of trivia of your choice – what were the other two?
[/little hijack]
The ancient Greeks practised animal sacrifice but also used symbolic sacrifice.
Is the concept of * libation * where you take up your cup of wine and then pour some upon the ground as a sacrifice all that different from * Lent * where Christians traditionally gave up certain foods, or meat-less days (of which the Catholic fish-on-fridays is the best known)?
Are both perhaps ways of incorporating ones religion into the acts of everyday life, and reinforcing the idea of worship as part of life rather than something distinct that you do in a certain place on a specified day?
Apollyon, attmepting to grope his way back in the direction of the OP…
God knows, I ain’t the one to answer questions about Christianity, but since no one else has picked up the gauntlet… The question is, why do Christians think that Jesus’ dying has anything to do with other people’s sins?
We start with the historic role of sacrifice in ancient pagan religions. The pagan gods presumably liked the smell of meat and incense burning. Along came the new monotheist Israelite religion, and the smell of burning stuff wasn’t what the Israelite God liked. He liked people behaving morally, and so the Israelites transformed the notion of sacrifice into (a) an expression of thankfulness and (b) a means of atoning for certain wrongful behaviours (“sins”).
As Zev already noted, for animal sacrifice in ancient Judaism, the entrails and goopy stuff was burnt, but the meat was eaten. Thus, sacrifice became a way of sanctification: we gonna eat meat, we’re gonna be sure the slaughter is as painless as can be, we’re not gonna drink the blood, and we’re gonna tie it into worship/holiness.
Around the time of the first Kings (say, 1000 - 950 BC), Israelite sacrifice was mostly centralized, it happened at the Temple in Jerusalem and was NOT supposed to happen locally. This was partly political (to feed the Temple priests) and partly religious. Although there was some opposition to this centralization, by around 550 BC (time of the Second Temple), sacrifice was ONLY permitted at the centralized Temple in Jerusalem.
OK so far? (This does tie together, be patient.) Now we move to shortly after the death of Jesus. Jesus’ death is probably around 30 AD, give or take a few years, and a generation later, in 70 AD, the Romans destroy the Temple in Jerusalem, and so it is no longer possible to make sacrifices there.
Judaism is faced with a crisis: how does one atone for sins if there is no longer any sacrifice? The rabbinic answer was that prayer – individual and collective – replaced sacrifice.
This answer has its roots deep in prophetic literature. Zev cites Isaiah, and he could have mentioned plenny other prophets who say: “It’s not the sacrifice that gives atonement, but the sense of penance, the feelings, redressing any wrongs, and trying not to repeat the offense.” So the rabbis (and Judaism) adapted – one might say, evolved – after sacrifice was not possible.
OK, that was the rabbinic answer. But there was a new sect within Judaism at the time, trying to portray Jesus as the promised Messiah, and they took a different approach. They said that Jesus’ sacrifice was the culmination of all prior sacrifices, and there is no longer a need for sacrifice for atonement because Jesus’ sacrifice REPLACES all future sacrifices.
Got it? So, that’s why Christianity refers to Jesus’ death as the atonement for the sins of the world.
I don’t want to hijack this beyond comprehension, so here are some links to Encyclopedia Brittanica about the various groups we’ve been argueing about:
Overview of Mesoamerican Civilizations
From the article on the Maya:
The only citations I can find mention “small hairless dogs use in Taco Bell commercials” and turkeys.
I’ll guess guinea pigs or caveys for the third.
So do you have any thing for extra credit? May I take the make up test?
As explanations go though, that is a bit unsatisfying to a lot of folks, me included. When it comes to Jesus’ fate, why sacrifice anything, let alone him, at all? I mean, Jesus made a heck of a lot of big changes in religious matters, so what’s another proclamation doing away with sacrifices? God, after all, makes these rules no?
To me, the idea of Jesus being a sacrifice for all mankind seems to be simply a way of rationalizing the fact that he was arrested and killed. They couldn’t very well explain the death of a messiah as an ignominious execution.
Ptahlis,
I think Paul is responsible for this. When he began taking converts without circumscision, it stopped being Jewish and he was able to use your explanation for the Jewish messiah not being fullfilled. Perhaps he brought in some Greek influence, Dionysis (sp) who died for his followers.
carnivorousplant wrote:
My understanding was that Paul was a Mithraist.
<< To me, the idea of Jesus being a sacrifice for all mankind seems to be simply a way of rationalizing the fact that he was arrested and killed. They couldn’t very well explain the death of a messiah as an ignominious execution. >>
Well, yeah. I agree, Ptah, but then I’m Jewish. I’m just trying to explain the rationale, since no Christians have rushed forward to do so.
The three domesicated animals of the Aztecs (source being my wife’s MesoAmerican history lectures – anyone who knows better feel free to correct me):
- Small dogs raised for food which were similar to the modern Chihuahua breed.
- Sting-less bees for honey.
- Cochineal bugs for dye.
Don’t know about turkeys. Perhaps they didn’t keep them but only hunted them wild like pheasant or grouse in Europe.
(You can take the make up test next time I remember some other useless trivia like this).
Tadpoles and salamanders rolled up in tortillas were also mentioned. Yum. They could bust citizens for being drunk on cactus beer. Sacrificing while intoxicated laws?
carnivorousplant - I asked my wife (she of the MesoAmerican lectures) about turkeys, and she said, “Well, it was three or four animals and turkeys might have been one”. So much for reliable sources…
I think you should take the extra credit, and remind me to use the Brittanica in future.
PS: I recall that the Aztecs neighbours used to claim that they ate frogs, pond scum and other general filth… guess that’s what happens when you get a reputation for popping round for more than a cup of sugar…
“Excuse me, I’m from next door, and we seem to have run out of sacrifices… could you spare a few dozen”.