Saddam Captured: What now?

From CarnalK

Oh gods…not ‘the war was illegal’ crap again. :frowning: Its like a bad penny that just keeps coming back. Didn’t we just do a multi-page thread on this a few weeks ago…in which nothing was resolved?? In other words, no one could decisively prove that the war was either legal or illegal afaik.

Oh well…as it wasn’t resolved then, I suppose its hopeless.

From Seven

No chance. I’m willing to make the same wager as John on this one…SH WILL go to trial. What exactly do you figure he could reveil about the US? LOL, its not us who need to sweat…its France, Germany and Russia if its anyone. IF anything was going down recently, it was them doing the deed.

So, what would you like to wager that SH goes to trial and doesn’t meet with a convinent ‘accident’? BTW, why do you suppose he didn’t ‘shoot himself’ in his hidey hole if we wanted him dead? Wouldn’t that have been much easier?? Just curious as there seems to be a logic gap here.

-XT

Well, if the war was illegal, then everything the US has done since is illegal, and we are faced with a choice. Either a) Throw out the laws, and continue doing whatever we damn well please, or b) Attempt to return to a condition where law once again holds sway.
Arresting Saddam, and holding him over for trial, as opposed to just offing the bastard, is consistent with the second approach. You could argue that its still illegal, but it clearly represents a move towards the reinstatement of law.

BTW, I’ve never known enough about international law to decide whether the invasion was illegal. I doubt that many people do know enough to have an informed opinion.

But of course! It is illegal to defy UN Security Council Resolutions. The United States is the self-declared palladin and protector of the UN, UN assent to this office is not required. No doubt, we would be invading Israel for similar violations, if we weren’t otherwise busy ensuring our security from Saddam’s Invisible Pink Unicorns of Death.

Well, it has to be said that in reality there actually is no such thing as “international law” per se. Democracy, and the rule of law is something which is only practiced internally WITHIN nation-states.

But at the nation-state level the simple truth is that there isn’t a greater being we have to answer to. It’s not as though there are Martians or Venetians waiting to haul an entire nation-state off to jail for 8 years on the Moon or something.

Accordingly, there is no such thing as democracy between nation-states - merely alliances and shifting shared values etc.

I’m not saying the UN is a bad idea in theory - merely that when push comes to shove, most nation-states invariably serve their self interests if they see fit.

I always thought how interesting a trial in an international court would be, too interesting; it will never happen. Let alone a trial by the US, what can they charge him with?

WMD? oops, nope, let´s try again

Terrorism links? awww, let´s not get there again

Got it! He was a very bad guy? That´s something Iraq, Iran and Kuwait should sort out.

I would go even further. I have no doubt Saddam was a criminal but I also have no doubt in my mind the invasion was 100% illegal. The USA had no right to go in. None. But once it has gone in it becomes de facto the one responsible for keeping law and order. Not only is the USA entitled to arrest Saddam but it is in fact obligated to do what it can to arrest him. It took that responsibility when it invaded.

So, in my opinion it does not follow that because the invasion was illegal Saddam’s arrest is illegal.

Illegal under what law?

Provide a legitimate cite please. I’m really interested in reading about this one.

-LC

Am I speaking fucking french? I was answering John Mace’s question about how someone could think the invasion=illegal, arrest=legal. Just because you think the illegality of unilaterally invading a country is “unresolved” doesn’t mean I’m following some irrational thought process here.

THE UN CHARTER perhaps?

Chapter 1, article 1 for starters.

I suspect (and hope) the way this’ll go down is that the Iraqis will try him, with int’l/coalition ‘technical assistance’ so that it isn’t a total kangaroo court.

Hopefully, to promote good relations in the region, the Iranians and Kuwaitis will get a chance to present their case against him as well. Hopefully, the Kuwaitis’ll waive their enormous reparation demands and it might even be feather in the cap of the moderate Iranians–showing the benefits of cooperative engagement with the West.

I can’t imagine that, if it’s left up to the Iraqis, he won’t get the death penalty. That’s a little unfortunate–dead, he might have some mythic glory, if people forget those homeless-dude clips.

Alive and festering impotently in jail, he’d be totally unglamorous, which’d be better in the end, I wager.

No, it does not have to be said. Rather, stupid and ignorant things like that are best left unsaid. In reality there is such thing as “international law” (and I will even add the useless “per se”). There are plenty of university courses taught on the subject of international law. All governments of the world recognize international law and there are plenty of judgments from many courts of the world, including the SCOTUS which recognize such thing as “international law”.

Paquete Havana
http://www.walter.gehr.net/source.html
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3168472#post3168472
President Cleveland recognized its existence and the obligation of the USA to honor it:

He was referring to the overthrow of the Queen of Hawaii and there was no international tribunal competent in that event but, in fact, the SCOTUS had already applied principles of international law in other types of cases and international courts have been set up later with the express mission of applying international law. You ever heard of Nuremberg?

BTW, the cases of crimes against humanity (Nuremberg, Milosevich or attempted like happened with Pinochet) arise from principles of international law.

Certain crimes against humanity are recognized as being under universal jurisdiction and any country can prosecute them. Trafficking in slaves has long been considered a crime prosecutable by any nation. Admiralty laws are, to a great extent, the basis of internatinal laws and viceversa.

Saddam Hussein will probably be judged by an Iraqi tribunal but if the USA wanted to claim jurisdiction it would have to be under the universality of jurisdiction of crimes against humanity under international law.

Evidence suggests Saddam had been cowering in that hole for a long time. He looks like a fightened, beaten man, a man who has been living on the edge of survival for months, and not at all like someone who has been defiantly leading a insurgence against a hostile occupation.

God knows what happened to the money, but it seems clear he was not spending it on personal hygiene products.

-I doubt that. The hole, as shown in CNN drawings, was a small recess in which someone could lay, with a small fan and a vent pipe.

Period, end of conversation.

They noted he had a gun, but there was no mention of a toilet, or food, or anything else (blanket, padding, etc.) in the hole itself.

If he was indeed laying on his back in that tiny slot for nine months, he would not easily be able to even stand, to say nothing of waste disposal.

The hole was, I’m certain, as I said: a last-ditch hidey-hole. When the authorities come, jump in the hole and have an aide cover it up. The little side-cave was even a tiny offshoot of that, so that somebody looking in the main “well” might miss the side cave.

Then, when the authorities are gone, come back out and resume living in the hut.

It’s actually a very common druggie tactic, used in various ways at meth labs, out in the boonies at pot farms, you name it.

In other words, yes, he was hiding for months, but I strongly doubt he was in the hole for that whole time.

They actually verified that today. They said that the hut had fresh shirts for him, a small kitchen, etc.

He had the long hair and beard simply as a disguise, and probably because he trusted no one to cut it.

Oh, murdering Saddam would’ve just done wonders for the US and for Iraq. :stuck_out_tongue: It’s much better that he’s taken alive, partially for interrogation purposes, but mostly because it makes it easier to prove it’s really him. That’s quite important for the Iraqis. It also allows Iraq to deal with the justice end of things, and whatever happens - I’m against the death penalty even for this piece of crap - it’s better that it be a public and transparent thing rather than a murder in a hole by the occupying USA.

Saddam had no communications equipment of any sort with him. If he’d been trying to communicate by radio, or any other electronic means, I think he’d have been much easier to find. He was probably laying low and doing nothing else, especially not directing the resistance. He clearly wasn’t hiding in that one location all the time, but he was in hiding.

I doubt, sadly, that this will do much to hurt the resistance. The odds, as LouisB suggested, that they will try to get him out are minimal; the odds he’d be broken out are zero. I think the resistance is increasingly targeting Iraqis sympathetic to the US. Attacks against bases are really hard to pull off because they’re well-defended, roadside bombs and ambushes apparently work sometimes. Aiming at Iraqis helping America is easier, they’re soft targets with less defense. The aim is to scare people and intimidate them into not cooperating. Attacking the army isn’t really necessary for that. I can’t think of any reason they’d quit just because Saddam was caught, either.

I don’t know if this will help Bush that much. The euphoria from capturing Saddam will die down, if it’s really that big. The election isn’t for 11 months. This won’t end the resistance, and I think people long ago gave up hope there’d be WMD found (so did the administration, I think, since they’ve reassigned the searchers to other tasks). Most people want the troops home, but Bush can’t pull it off that fast - nobody could - and there will still be soldiers and Iraqis hurt and killed regularly. Today, before Saddam’s capture was announced, a suicide bomb killed 17 people at an Iraqi police station and hurt 33, and a soldier was killed in another incident. And on it goes.

To the original topic: I think this should be dealt with by Iraq with minimal outside involvement. We’re not going to get Nuremberg here, for a few reasons. One, Saddam didn’t do anything on Hitler’s scale, and two, the US government isn’t interested in that kind of international effort. Their attitude seems to be ‘to the victors go the spoils.’ I say this should be primarily an Iraqi thing because it would lend them more legitimacy, and I suppose more satisfaction, if the US lets them take care of it. I would hope that Iran and Kuwait (it’s probably too much to hope for Israel as well) would be included in that process, since Saddam victimized them as well.

Whether he was in that exact hole for the entire time is irrelevant. To all outward appearances, he seems to have been a man hiding and living, as I said, at the very edge of survival, and not like someone in command of anything.

As much as it pains me to say it, posters like Diogenes who are wondering about U.S. legal authority here are asking exactly the correct question.

First, power is not the same thing as authority. There is no question the U.S. has the power to arrest Sadaam and try him. Heck, there is no question that the U.S. has the power to summarily execute Sadaam by feeding him to wolverines.

But that doesn’t mean the U.S. has the authority to do so. The idea of holding a trial necessarily includes the idea that the court has jurisdiction to try the case and that there is some sort of recognized law that the defendant is being charged with breaking.

The problem here is that Sadaam hasn’t actually done anything done wrong that the U.S. can claim jurisdiction over. On the international front, there is no evidence that Sadaam had WMDs so there is no evidence that Sadaam and his government actually did violate the terms of the treaty that ended Desert Storm I. Even if they did have WMDs, he certainly never used them. I should point out that it would be a bit stiff to execute a head of state because his country violated a U.N. resolution. After all, countries violate Security Council resolutions in large or small ways 50 times a day.

So if you’re going the war criminal route, you have got to push all the way back to the invasion of Kuwait or, perhaps, the Iran-Iraq war. This is pretty weak. Both conflicts ended with treaties (as opposed to unconditional surrenders, unlike WWII) and neither treaty says anything about war crimes.

More to the point, the U.S. doesn’t have any standing in either conflict. Apart from occasionally stirring the pot, the U.S. had nothing to do with the Iran-Iraq war – it certainly was not a combatant. As for Gulf War I, the U.S. spearheaded things but it was, in effect, working for the U.N… Kuwait probably has authority to try Sadaam but it’s hard to see how the U.S. would. It’s also kind of an emotional let down. The invasion of Kuwait is really old news. Having said that, the invasion of Kuwait is the best legal cover for an interational tribunal.

All the rest of Sadaam’s crimes are domestic rather than international, and neither the U.S., nor Russia nor any other member of the international community (except maybe Sweden) is going to go down that road. Sadaam will be the U.N.'s Secretary General before say, China, will allow an international tribunal to try a head of state for his conduct of domestic affairs.

So the best option is to let the Iraqis try him for crimes committed against Iraqis. I predict that’s exactly what you’ll see, precisely to avoid the problems detailed above.

BTW, here’s an old semi-official statement detailing Sadaam’s crimes. As you can see, they are almost entirely domestic.

http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/09/iraq-000918.htm

Getting a bit high and mighty aren’t you? Far out, in all my time here on the board, that’s the first time anyone has ever labelled anything I’ve had to say as either ignorant or stupid. Far out.

What do you think I am? Some teenager who just read the “Communism Rules!” website for the first time? My post earlier, by any yardstick, was a thoughtful and considered one designed to help my fellow posters think outside the loop for a brief moment - and nothing more. Even to the most biased reader, it would have been obvious that my assertion that “international law” does not exist “in reality” was a rhetorical statement based on the wholly valid assumption that whatever “international law” which DOES exist between nation-states, does so based on the voluntary acceptance of those nation-states to adhere to a mutually codified set of laws.

For crying out loud… talk about taking a statement out of context and trashing a fellow poster senseless with it. Geez… did the analogy escape you or something Sailor? I stated quite clearly that if you’re a citizen within a nation-state, then that country’s laws apply to you. However, if you’re a nation-state, the only laws which then apply are those which you agree to abide by. This isn’t new… it’s a simple statement of reality. As it stands, the USA is sufficently powerful and influential to be able to write her own laws at the nation-state level any time she wants. This is neither a good nor a bad thing, it’s merely reality. By extension, this means that “international law” only exists to modify the USA’s behaviour as much as she wishes to accept such laws.

That’s all I’m saying. I’m not trying to say that there is no such thing as the Hague, or Interpol, or extradition treaties between nation-states. I was merely noting that “international law” is a voluntary agreement at the nation-state level. And that there is no “higher authority” who can enforce it - other than the common sense of good men and women around the world. To note such thing is neither ignorant nor stupid.

Far out…

And yes, of course I’ve heard of Nuremberg.

Boo Boo Foo, that was indeed a good analogy you made earlier. Ha, even I understood it. And you are correct, the nation that assumes the power doesnt really have to answer to anyone if they dont want to.
Happens all the time on this nice planet, untill some other country knock them off their pedestal.