And…?
Does this timing make sense? Again I emphasize how very little I know about this…The Zelda game was planned for 2015, delayed twice, and released on March 3, 2017. Does this mean that it’s likely the voice work was affected by the strike?
Yeah, the games mentioned have been in development for years. ME:A released in March – I doubt they first started voice recording in November.
…I’ve provided a link to the official SAG-AFTRA position. I don’t even live in America. Rather than asking me this question: why don’t you either read their website, or send them an email?
If they don’t: then what do you think?
You do realize that this is a negotiation, right? Do you understand how that works? One side argues for one thing, the other argues for another, and eventually a compromise is reached. Voice acting is a skilled job. There is a reason why SAG-AFTRA members are used in most large scale video game productions. Its because they are very good at their job. They have experience. They are talented. They aren’t going to destroy their voices a day into their job. They are professional: and productions know that if you hire experienced, professional talented actors they are going to get what they pay for.
This is the state of the negotiations.
https://www.sagaftra.org/interactive/proposal-details
You are a lawyer. If one of your clients said to you: “We can get by without your services now: Uncle Bob has watched several episodes of Law and Order and our services will still sell without having to pay for your services…so we are going to pass” do you think they are going to run into trouble later on?
Well its a good thing you aren’t part of the negotiations then. You aren’t ever going to get more information than what you can from a google search or from the words of people involved in the strike. I’m going to stop bothering to cite anything, and everybody else should stop in this thread as well. Because I don’t believe its a lack of information that has caused you to be “uninformed.” I think you have another agenda here: but I don’t have a clue what it is. What is this debate really about?
So based on that I would say it’s unlikely that the strike produced the effects claimed by pjacks – but it does show that there’s an ease in claiming that the quality of voice work in video games has gone down and attributing it to the strike.
I think you should calm down. If you don’t want to answer, stop answering.
I think there’s a similarity, but not an exact parallel.
I don’t realize this. I think that non-AFTRA-SAG members can likely provide similar quality. But I am familiar with negotiation. Thank you for asking.
I do! But I don’t think the analogy between legal representation and voice work holds water. I think non-union voice actors will likely be able to provide similar services to those provided by AFTRA-SAG members and there is little analogous risk to the game producers in the same way that relying on a “Law and Order” educated legal representative would entail.
Frankly, I’m pleased to hear of your plans to no longer participate. I have gotten excellent information in this thread from other posters, information that was not available on Google or from the strikers. From you, however, I’ve gotten essentially a barrage of hostile reactions and no good info, so I can’t see any harm to the discussion in your decision to stop.
There probably is enough half decent non-union voice actors that Activision can struggle along without SAG approval. I still don’t really get the resistance as the demands are pretty reasonable and hiring pros can save you more than $3k, since you’ll have less takes and editing to do.
Like I said, the real problem for game companies is when they want to make a Transformers/Avengers/Whatever game where the real actors will be more important to production. Those actors will get more than this low bar position of SAG but will probably break the companies’ stand.
Yeah, VGA Charts are not always very rigorous about their sources, but that’s pretty much an industry problem. There are no publicly available records for that many years, that many platforms and that many games.
NPD doesn’t include all games from all publishers, and doesn’t include digital sales from, for example, the Bliz launcher or the Nintendo store.
As unclear as the picture is on VGCharts, I don’t think there’s a better composite picture publicly available. But if you find one, feel free to post it here.
…please don’t tone police. I am calm. But I don’t know why you are asking questions that have actual answers: when you know I’m not in a position to answer it. Have you read the website yet? Have you contacted them?
Similar to what? Parallel to what?
You didn’t realize what? That this is a negotiation? What do you think the two parties are doing?
Can you name some non AFTRA SAG members who can provide “similar quality?” How have you made that assessment? I’d be interested to see exactly who you are talking about, and how they compare with AFTRA SAG membership who are working reliably in the industry.
Didn’t you just finish saying you didn’t realize this was a negotiation?
What makes you think unskilled less experienced workers can provide similar services to skilled experienced workers? That isn’t the case in my industry. That hasn’t been the case at any place I have worked. Why do you think that the voice acting industry is any different?
I never said I wasn’t going to participate. I stated I would no longer provide any cites for you. I’m sorry to disappoint you.
I’m not going to stop. I’ve had at least one other poster in this thread thank me for the information that I provided: and I know that the information I have provided in this thread has been instructive to others, and I’ve provided much more information than you have in this thread. So I really don’t care what you think of my posts.
This is a thread in great debates. You chose, in post 8: to use MY post as the springboard for debate because there wasn’t really anything to debate in your original OP. I’m here at your invitation. Your proposition is that “name” voice talent is/is not pivotal to the success of some video games." I’ve cited a well regarded video game critic who disagrees with you: and he cited many different video games where the voice acting was an integral part of the success. You’ve cited yourself: a player of Pokemon and not very much else. You’ve cited yourself, even though you state you are “uninformed.” Are you interested in debate: or do you just want people to spoon-feed you information? If all you are going to bring to the table is your “uninformed opinion” (your words, not mine), then maybe you should request this thread be moved to either IMHO, or the Game Room.
Your tone isn’t remotely calm.
See, this is what a lack of calm does: makes you forget shit.
A reminder:
Those words were part of a conversational thread: you asked what I thought about the proposition that inter-union cooperation is fairly described as “expecting others to fight for you.” I answered: there’s a similarity but not an exact parallel.
I realize its a negotiation – I don’t “realize” that the claims you made about AFTRA-SAG voice actors apply only to AFTRA-SAG members. I think everything you said is true about some non-union voice actors as well. And I think it’s untrue about some AFTRA-SAG members. Mayim Bialik, for example. has lost her voice and shared that she has been speaking wrongly – that is, unprofessionally using her voice and causing strain to her vocal abilities. So what you said (“There is a reason why SAG-AFTRA members are used in most large scale video game productions. Its because they are very good at their job. They have experience. They are talented. They aren’t going to destroy their voices a day into their job. They are professional: and productions know that if you hire experienced, professional talented actors they are going to get what they pay for.”) is not true for all AFTRA-SAG members, and probably true for many non-AFTRA-SAG members.
Because acting is different. And I can see for myself that it’s the case in regional theater.
I’m interested in learning more information to confirm or dispel my opinion. But, yeah, not from you.
I was under the impression that voice work is the last thing that gets done before QA. That’s definitely the case with Japanese games that need localization, the English dub is added shortly before release.
MEA had a turbulent development, and according to some sources within Bioware, dialogue was still being WRITTEN in early 2017. So stuff was definitely getting recorded during the strike, and it was terrible, maybe owing to an inexperienced voice cast.
Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk
…all I know
…is that
…starting every reply with ellipsis
…and striking a tone of condescension
…really helps me win arguments
…my tone is very calm. But thanks for your concern.
I didn’t forget nothing.
You’ve quoted the chain wrong. Your question was in two parts. Your first question was:
My answer to that question was: “I’ve provided a link to the official SAG-AFTRA position. I don’t even live in America. Rather than asking me this question: why don’t you either read their website, or send them an email?”
The question you asked has a factual answer. My suggestion was that if you want the answer to that question you go find the answer to that question instead of asking me. I don’t think thats an unreasonable position to take: and I think I was completely calm in letting you know that.
The second question you asked was:
I don’t accept that they do: and from my understanding of their position (and feel free to prove me wrong) is that they don’t demand that members of other unions don’t cross the picket line, so I don’t accept your question as valid. So my response to you was a question:
“If they don’t: then what do you think?”
So I didn’t ask you "what I thought about the proposition that inter-union cooperation is fairly described as “expecting others to fight for you.” I asked you “if the union doesn’t expect other unions to not cross the picket line, what do you think?”
Your response “I think there’s a similarity, but not an exact parallel” makes absolutely no sense at all. And if you would just calm down for a minute and read what I actually said and not what you think I said you would have figured that out.
I’m sure it may apply to some non-union voice actors as well. But that doesn’t negate my general point. AFTRA-SAG are generally proven qualities. Non AFTRA-SAG voice actors are generally not.
Shit happens. Mayim Bialik isn’t being unprofessional. Her talent hasn’t diminished. She is still very good at her job. Her experience hasn’t regressed. Professionals, when advised by their doctor to take vocal rest for 30 day will take vocal rest for 30 days. You imply that this is a result of some sort of unprofessional action Bialik has taken: if you’ve got anything to back that up please cite it.
A page full of what? Talent that is similar quality as Troy Baker, Jennifer Hale, Merle Dandridge, Courtnee Draper, Mark Hamill, Kevin Conroy, or Nolan North? Which of those voice actors would you pick to replace Michael Mando from Far Cry 3? Who would be a suitable replacement for Ashley Johnson in the Last of Us? How did you make the assessment that these people can provide similar quality? Have you reviewed their portfolios? Seen their mo-cap work? Spoken to their referees? You want to replace Jen Taylor with Michelle (no last name) who has recorded a couple of advertisements for spotify?
I asked for specifics: you’ve given me a hit from google.
You would cast the lead for the next Avengers movie from your local regional theatre?
How is acting different from any other job?
What a shame. I’ve actually provided you with more than enough information to come to an informed choice. I can’t help how you perceive my tone.
…I’m not the one who thinks extremely talented hard working professional voice actors can be replaced by someone from a google search. If a tone of condescension is a problem for you, perhaps you should be speaking to Bricker, and not me.
It’s definitely possible to find extremely talented individuals outside of SAG. Perhaps the best voice work to date is Doug Cockle (of Geralt fame) and is outside SAG. A Witcher game without him would be odd.
The union has zero chance of success. There is no wave of public support behind them and top-notch voice acting just isn’t very important to most genres. What you see is a large number of actors and actresses doing one-liners.
If you go down the Steam list, it takes a long time to hit a game with much spoken dialogue. (GTA V doesn’t count because everyone is playing GTA Online.)
Knock it off. This is not contributing to the discussion in any way and is a personal dig.
Everyone else, please do not let heated discussion get the better of you.
[/moderating]
I’ve been a videogame programmer for 19 years now, and this debate has come up many times over the years at places where I have worked. Typically nobody is very sympathetic to the voice actors, and I’ll try to explain why.
A major game takes 3-4 years to develop, with a team of 50 to 200 people working long hours more often than not. When you’ve just poured 4 years of your life into something, working weekends and evenings, it just rubs people the wrong way that some actors who do a few days of recording towards the end of the project feel that they should get residuals, when nobody else does. A game development team usually goes through a sort of “bonding in the trenches” process where everyone becomes close in the face of shared hardship. The voice actors are not a part of that, they are not “on the team”, they are hired contractors who do a small amount of work and then are gone again. Most people on the game team never meet or see them.
I just want to add that this doesn’t mean I don’t think voice actors are an important part of the process, they clearly are. Many of my favorite games are the ones with characters that are very well casted and voiced. Bad voice acting sticks out like a sore thumb in an otherwise polished game and can keep it from being truly great. I think actors should definitely be paid well for their work, and should advocate for more pay if they can, but the reason many companies are reluctant to sign on with any residuals plan is that they know there would be massive discontent from the development team who would feel demoralized and unappreciated.
According to this site, any games in development prior to February 2015 were exempt from the strike so basically any major AAA or flagship title from since the strike began was probably unaffected and any poor voice acting was just poor (possibly union) voice acting.
I can understand that sentiment but it really is completely unfair and unreasonable. First of all, you guys are likely earning a lot more money off the game even with an actor recieving a residual. I know you work hard for it, you deserve it but an actor is not swooping in and getting rich off all your work. Secondly, as you say they’re contract workers and acting jobs don’t grow on trees. The pay structure they’ve developed in their industry has been hammered out over years to reflect the sometimes sporadic nature of their work. They also don’t get all that money. Their agent gets 10% and SAG gets 1.5%. If they are doing well, a manager might take another 10%.
Maybe the whole paradigm has to change but video games entered the theatre business not the other way around. They’ve been getting paid this way for decades and you resent them for resisting the gaming industry saying “nah, let’s not do it that way”? Maybe programmers should get residuals. They should get some kind of performance bonus. But would you trade it for your steady paycheck? Your benefits? 10-20% of your earnings?
I assume most voice actors aren’t voice acting as a full-time gig. The above linked article says you can be getting paid $825 for a four-house session. That would be over $400k a year but, if they’re making $31k, that’s maybe 150hrs of work. This article backs up that number:
If you’re a voice actor earning $31k a year doing video games then either you’re working the equivalent of perhaps one month of 40hr weeks per year or you’re getting paid way under what your fellow voice actors are making. In either case, comparing it to what full time programmers who are spending years of 60+ hour weeks on a project are making as a defense for why you deserve residuals is pretty weak stuff.