Your unwillingness to either accept the multiple sources saying $200/hr or present your own cites because you’d rather say “Nuh uh, Google”, knowing that the answer works against your argument?
No, that’s not my whole point.
Well just like any industry, the union’s bargaining power is directly related to how much of the talent they represent. According to neofishboy, it doesn’t seem like SAG has a stranglehold on the voice actor market.
It’s not really a matter of lending sympathy to voice actors over the developers and coders, since the developers and coders currently are not choosing to take a seat at the bargaining table. Therefore, I don’t factor in the developers and coders when it comes to determining my position on this issue. Since I see collective bargaining as a general benefit to workers and SAG-AFTRA is not doing anything but attempting to apply a similar standard to the one it uses in traditional media, I see no reason not to support their efforts.
Should the developers and coders choose to unionize and bargain collectively for better pay, hours or working conditions, I would most likely support those as well.
So the odd thing is, many (maybe about half?) of people I’ve talked to about this don’t actually event want residuals for themselves, myself included. The reason being that you have to assume that if the industry shifted to a system where everyone is getting residuals, it would involve everyone taking an upfront pay cut. Why? Well, where does all that money from a hit game go? For the most part, it pays for the development of the next round of games. So in a sense we already get “residuals” in the sense that if you’re involved making a hit game, you get more money to make another one. If the publisher is having to budget for performance payouts, that’s less money for the next games, which would translate to less pay, or fewer new games funded.
The important part of that is that not all games are big hits. More games are not hits than are. So there’s a calculation to be made there - if I’m working for 4 years on one game, that might or might not be a hit, is it better to just take more money up front, or bet on it being a hit and getting money down the road? Different people feel differently about that gamble, but I like to be somewhat conservative, and get paid whether the fucking thing is a hit or not. (In my experience it doesn’t matter how good that game actually is, after staring at it for 4 years, most people on the team are convinced that the game is utter, utter shit by the time it launches.)
This calculation is vastly different for voice actors. Instead of working on one game for four years, they contribute to a dozen or more over that time. Their odds of being involved in a hit game and much much higher. So for them it definitely makes sense to push for catching a part of the action.
So in conclusion, maybe about half of game developers want residuals and would be resentful if actors got them, the other half don’t really want residuals but would still be somewhat resentful if actors got them. 
I’m not saying people make sense.
By the way, this split on wanting/not wanting residuals is one of the reasons the push for it has never really gotten that much traction in the industry. There are enough people who just don’t feel strongly enough about it to go on strike or form a union over it, because let’s be real, forming/joining a union on an industry-wide basis would be a huge task.
That’s fine for you since I’m not really waving a flag or a pitchfork for the coders so much as not agreeing with the argument for the voice actors.
Simply put, if voice actors want consumer support to change the status quo then it’s up to them or their supporters to make an argument for that which is compelling to the consumers. I don’t think that’s really happening (certainly not in this thread) which is why no one is really rallying to pressure the studios.
Also, if you want to figure out who should get your sympathies, don’t make this be about programmers vs voice actors. Programmers are indeed paid well, we’re doing fine. My sympathies are with the artists, animators, designers, interns, production people and all the rest of the development team who also put in too much time but aren’t getting paid nearly as much as programmers are, and are not getting residuals either.
I wouldn’t think residuals would be the main impetus for a union drive so much as the ridiculous hours they want you to work in the ever more frequent “crunch times”.
For whatever light this may cast on the life of voice actors:
As you may know, Steve Carrell, a very talented actor, lends his voice to the character “Gru,” in the Despicable Me franchise; the third installment is in theaters now. Carrell and his co-star Kristen Wiig are doing press junkets for the movie now.
In an interview on the Today show, Carrell shared that he went to Spain to do press for the movie. . . despite the fact that viewers in Spain never hear Carrell’s voice. They hear the Spanish dub of the movie by a totally different actor. One of the Today hosts asked him what he said in response to the request to do press for a movie version that features neither his image or his voice.
He replied, “Thanks for the free trip to Spain!”
I’m rather confident that casts zero light on the life of voice actors.
It does raise the point that, unlike Hollywood stars who may be jetting around for promotional tours even when they’ve been dubbed over – simply because “Steve Carrell” being connected to the film is meaningful – most people really don’t care if a voice actor is part of their game. You use Jennifer Hale because she’s talented, professional and gives quality results but basically no one is going to say “What? Jennifer Hale isn’t in this?” and drop it if she’s not. Likewise, vanishingly few people put “Voice acted by Jennifer Hale” on their list of priorities when picking out a game. Beyond some franchise devotees, most players are unaware that the same voice is even in a game and its sequel.
With all the other aspects to video games: visuals, mechanical, balance in multiplayer, etc voice acting has a subtle role. It can take a good game and help make it great but it rarely ruins a game provided the actors are half competent. I might joke with friends about “Man, that guy at the ammo depot sounds like a drunk kid” but it’s never “That guy’s voice acting sucks, I’m never playing another Laser Dragons game again.” There’s just not much leverage there for the actors.
Just like no one says “the lasers are too purple” or “the back scenery scrolls too fast” when deciding to never play a game again. Thereby proving animators shouldn’t ask for a raise. Life is hard for the background workers.
Voice actors definitely play and role in the overall quality of a game, just like animators and all the other disciplines. They probably aren’t a single critical factor that determines if someone buys a game, but then again probably neither is any other single factor. That’s what makes their role in videogames different than their role in movies.
Actors undeniably play a huge role in movies, and when you think of a movie you love or hate, you’re probably going to assign credit or blame to the director, the actors, and maybe one or two other people. Actors have a lot of power in Hollywood because they are the main product. In videogames, they’re just another nameless, faceless contributor to the project, no more important than the lead technical animator or engine guru. That doesn’t give them the same leverage they enjoy in Hollywood.
Actors played a pretty huge role in Last of Us.
Animators aren’t striking, now are they? The issues with people giving a crap about striking voice actors are legitimate whether someone wants to stomp their foot and talk about animators or not.
Rejemy understands what I was saying: Voice actors play a more subtle role and so it’s harder to get leverage. Even worse, the role they play can probably be played by someone else in a pinch. Not “Oh, my dog walker can do this job” but “Another decently skilled voice actor who isn’t asking for more money can do this job”. And if work is so thin on the ground that you’re only making $31k a year at $200/hr, then I’m sure there’s a number of voice actors who would be happy to take your gig.
Circling back to the OP, it’s probably too early to tell based on any major release titles since stuff like ME:A or Zelda was in development in 2015 and exempt from the strike. But, as I’m understanding it:
(a) There is a large non-union pool of voice actors
(b) Individual voice actors are not a draw for deciding which games to buy provided the voice acting itself is competent
(c) Voice work is relatively well paid on a per hour basis versus most work your average person is doing
(d) Stories of overworked development staffs are much more prevalent in the gaming community than stories of voice actors who don’t get paid enough
(e) When asked, voice actors don’t really have a response for why anyone should prioritize their plight over that of (d) besides “They’re not my issue”
(f) …which leads to soft support for the voice actors from the gaming consumers
With the combination of soft support from the game purchasers and availability of non-union voice acting labor, I don’t see this strike making much impact or being successful. It won’t bother me to be wrong (well, about the success; I guess I’d be bothered if all games now had terrible voice acting) but I just don’t see it working.
Thanks. It’s really fascinating to get a game purchaser’s perspective on the labour dispute.
If you want only industry opinions, go find an industry forum to “But Google!” on :rolleyes:
…who, in the creative industries, works a “40 hour week?”
I’m a photographer. I typically spend 10-20 hours a month at most actually taking photos. Maybe 5 jobs a month. Do I spend the rest of my time with my feet up, sipping latte’s on holiday in Spain? Nope. I’m editing. I’m marketing. I’m hustling. I’m upskilling. I’m forecasting. I’m doing my taxes. I’m networking. With the exception of editing, none of that is billable.
I charge a few hundred dollars an hour. Do you expect me to drop my rate, and find 40 hours of work every week? And if I can’t, to “go find a real job?”
Does a full-time author work a “40 hour week?” No they don’t. Some of them might get paid an advance. Many of them do not. But what they don’t do is wake up Monday morning, clock in at 0900, then clock out 8 hours later.
The way creatives get compensated has adapted to fit the market. There are voice actors who do this part-time, from home, who work another job to make ends meet. You would typically find them in places like this.
But expecting talent like Nolan North to fly across country to do a few hours work and then fly home to start his shift at the supermarket is just a bit silly. No matter how “easy” you might consider the job of the voice actor, the reality is that there aren’t a lot of people out there that can do what these guys do. It isn’t just reading into a microphone. Nolan has credits on just under 200 games. When Bungie replaced Peter Dinklage with Nolan Northon Destiny, they explained it like this: ""Dinklage was awesome to work with… but we needed to work with someone who is more available. Nolan is a pro, this is his thing," he explained. “We can just call him up and say ‘hey, next week we’re doing this internal play test and it would be great to get some Ghost dialogue in there’… And he’s available.”
The games studios don’t want talent like North to work a “day job.” So they compensate him accordingly. This is nothing more than the free market in action.
Sorry. That was pissy of me. My apologies.
…what issues do you think are at play? This is a negotiation between two parties.
But this isn’t true. A decent skilled actor can’t just replace Meryl Streep or Robert Redford in a blockbuster tentpole movie with millions of dollars on the line. And a decently skilled voice actor probably isn’t going to be able to do the same job as a Michael Mando or Hellena Taylor.
And not a lot of this non-union pool of voice actors has the sort of experience, talent and availability as those that are in the union.
But individual voice actors are a draw for making the gaming experience a more enjoyable one. And the more enjoyable a game, the better reviews a game will get, the better the word of mouth, and the more sales at the end of the day.
This is incredibly subjective. I make more “per hour” than most average people do. But I can go for a month with zero work: in fact that just happened. Fortunately I banked enough money in May to see me through that quiet month…and now things are going to pick up again. But “hourly rates” and “average people” are pretty meaningless terms here.
I have huge sympathy for overworked development staffs. But these problems have been endemic in the industry for decades. Heaping scorn on voice actors who have made a stand to demand a “slice of the pie” isn’t going to do anything to reduce the workload. Voice actors aren’t asking for anyone to “prioritize their plight.” If overworked development staff want to “bring their plight” to the table I’m pretty sure voice actors wouldn’t object. But they don’t want to.
Well there really isn’t anything else to say, is there? It isn’t their issue. Voice actors don’t know how much a programmer or a digital artist gets paid. They don’t know what is in their contract. They don’t know their conditions. What is it that you want the voice actors to do?
Voice actors pay their dues to an organization whose job it is to stand up for their conditions. I’m a gaming consumer: and they have my support. But my support doesn’t really matter. I’m not a party to the negotiations.
SAG-AFTRA have already signed 45 games (33 game companies) to independently negotiated video game agreements during the strike. They have already come to agreement on a number of issues. There are still a few up for negotiation. So what you “just don’t see as working” already “has” worked to a degree.
…I haven’t heard any great demand for residuals from anyone outside of the voice actors.
But there is one demand that is pretty consistent across the board: and that is to get paid for the work that you do. That would be fair right? Doesn’t that happen in every other workplace?
Unpaid overtime and crunch happens far too often. But the thing is this isn’t going to change in the industry until you guys decide to do something about it. What exactly “that is” is a subject for debate. But rather than looking at the voice actors and getting “demoralized and feeling unappreciated” you should be looking at it as an impetus to take action. Voice actors aren’t responsible for your feelings. You can’t expect voice actors to fix the video games industry. They have fought, and are making sacrifices, to make conditions and pay better for voice actors not only for themselves, but for voice actors that join the industry in the future. Its about time the rest of the industry started to think the same way.