Saint Zero said regarding homosexuality
LauraLee said regarding homosexuality
Is that the only reason?
I’m just curious, because the reason I don’t engage in homosexuality is because I’m not homosexual. Morality has nothing to do with it.
It just sounds like you’d like to do it, but some ancient moral code is preventing you.
Well, true, I kinda butted into this one, but St. Zero certainly has a place in this debate. It was directed to him personally.
Not to be rude or anything, but is it any of your business? Would it make my opinion worth anything more than it is now? Didn’t think so…
WARNING: bigots defense pending:
I tend to agree with Saint Zero,
And yes im going to say some of my best friends are gay.
I’ve had roomates that were gay.
I had a girlfiend who was bi.
I’ve quite literally put my life on the line and physically prevented gay bashing’s from occuring on several occasions. I would bet not many of you can say you have done this. This actually has happened more you would think. I live in a pretty redneck area of the country, the crowd I hung around with was pretty diverse. conflicts with the local rednecks were quite common. But regardless, just because someone disagrees with you, does not make that person ignorant, or a bigot, or a hate monger or anything of the sort. Not everyone believes that homosexuality is the same as left handedness. I used to work in a mental hospital as a tech. Most of the doctors there believed privately that homosexuality was a mental disorder. they would never say so publically, because it isn’t PC, and they wouldnt try to treat it as such for the same reason. My point is that this was thier professional oppinion. It wasnt out of hate, or ignorance. They may be wrong. I’m not a shrink, I don’t know.
For me, I believe that homosexual acts are sinfull, because the bible says they are, and being a Christian I believe the bible to be the final word. The people who commit them are not bad people, any more than I am a bad person for some of the things I have done.(I have done plenty of sinful things, as everyone has). I dont hate anyone. I dont think that gays are inferior. I dont think that gays are immoral. If you go around shouting down everyone who disagree’s with your particular viewpoint on something, and calling them igornant and hatefull for disagreeing with you, then you are the intolorant one, not them.
Ok, granted. It’s none of my business. I withdraw the question.
On completely unrelated note …
This is addressed to anyone who chooses to remain in the closet to appease their learned/percieved/beaten into notions of morality. You are suppressing who you really are. You will be much happier if you live your life celebrating who you are openly. Don’t let others tell you how you should be. Be yourself.
LauraLee, I was only making the point that if you aren’t homosexual, that is ok. But if the reason you aren’t is because someone said you shouldn’t be, then you are the only one who is suffering. (I’m speaking generically here, I know it’s still none of my business).
Just out of curiosity, how did this whole thing move from “Why do you think it’s immoral?” to “Prove that it’s a bad thing!”? The questions really aren’t related. To me, and various others, it is immoral. To a great many other people, it’s not. I’m not trying to change any opinions. I don’t think St.Zero is trying to change any opinions. So why must we change ours? Or are we just not allowed to state what makes up our own moral codes?
So, instead of saying that one thinks that homosexual acts are “wrong”, one should instead say something along the lines of, “I have no interest in participation or observation of homosexual acts.” Is that correct? Would everyone’s feelings be suficiently protected with that non-commital statement? How about “I am disinterested in the subject.” Or, “No, thank You.”
For Pete’s sake, maybe I’m just naive here, but this seems like a whole lot of nothing being blown into an argument of semantics.
We would all do well to be more tolerant. Especially those of us who preach tolerance.
Yeah, I do. This is the argument that states: A heterosexual is willing to eschew sex for the decade or so between the start to puberty marriage marriage, a homosexual must then be willing to eschew sex for the course of a lifetime.
Hmmm, but what about the fact that there are some churchs/religions that perform same-sex marriages?
Well, it was VERY open back during the Roman Empire days… in fact, it was believed that a man could only truly love another man, and women existed for the sole purpose of making babies. I guess, tolerance-wise, you win some, you lose some.
No it isn’t. To say “I don’t believe it is right” is to say I don’t believe it is right" (surprise, surprise!). To believe that there’s only a Right and Wrong to a debate like this is simple-minded.
Lissener…
“That depends on what your definition of ‘is’ is.”
Yes, I do. I can have the opinion that you’re a saint, or I can have the opinion that you’re the anti-christ. And you know what else? I don’t need any reason to have either of those opinions.
Why? An interior decorator’s opinion is just as valid as the next man’s. Does an interior decorator’s opinion tend to carry much credence? Not usually, no.
The universe is gay? I thought that’s why the place felt so fruity 
Why must facts be used to defend an opinion? Sure, homosexuality ain’t exactly the hot new story of the week, but I hardly think that Mr. Zero even mentioned that as a tangible point. In case you read too much between the lines, he said, basically, that he just doesn’t care much for homosexuality. Period. It’s that simple, my friend.
It’s not even an invention. It’s just the way things are (well, in most cases… I’m sure that there’re very rare instances that differ beyond the norm). Does that mean that everyone has to automatically embrace it and like it? Hell no. Does that mean that they believe homosexuality to be bad, if they don’t automatically like it? I haven’t either Saint Zero or Lauralee (or myself, or anyone else who doesn’t agree with you) say that homosexuality is bad in this thread.
bad. According to merriam webster’s. morally objectionable.
Immoral. According to merriam webster’s. conflicting with generally or traditionally held moral principles.
So by saying that it is immoral it is being condemned and you are saying it’s bad. Much like when Bill H called stealing immoral, he was calling it bad.
Actually, it is seen in all mammals. There is homosexual activity in apes and other species. Unnatural would be making new orfices. We’re just using the orfices nature gave us… how is that unnatural?
Homosexuality was removed as a disorder in the 1970’s. To put it with mental illnesses demonizes it and us with a stigma we’ve been trying to overcome for centuries.
While this could be seen as tolerant, it is still saying that love between others that is not codified by the masses is wrong. Blacks and whites used to be kept apart by this and are still harassed in some parts of the country.
Love is love, no matter the color or gender. When people get this through their heads and hearts, they’ll realize that it isn’t who you love, but how much and how well.
I think that the point that many of the people have been trying to make here is that homosexuality is simply a variation (not abnormality but variation) that is present in nature. I have read accounts of homosexuality being practiced among other primates besides humans, and there may be accounts of other animal species with sexual behavior practiced between animals of the same sex. How can a variation that is present in nature be immoral?
I looked up immoral in my trusty dusty Webster’s and it is defined as:
If homosexuality were a choice, and for some obvious reason harmful to homosexuals or others, then it could be said to be immoral. People who argue about abortion come at it from one side or the other because there is a choice as to whether or not to have an abortion.
As my gay friends have told me, and as many people on the board have stated, homosexuality is not a choice.
Perhaps people who think it is immoral are saying that practicing homosexuality is immoral, and expect all people born with the natural variation of homosexuality should refrain from having sex. And I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
But maybe people who know little about this natural variation should examine more closely the facts and how they have come to hold the opinions that they hold before espousing them on a public forum.
Was it Thoreau who said the unexamined life is not worth living?
I often hear this argument; that scientists are cowed into silence by political forces. Is this supposed to make me respect their opinion on the subject? If you believe something is true and that there are people running around with an untreated mental illness, then you go out and prove it. If you stay quiet and let politics dictate science, then you are no better than those PC forces.
Though personally, I believe the cries of “PC”, is the dying argument of faulty scientific thought. Can’t find the sufficient number of studies that support your belief, then it must be politics at work.
Rather than cite secondhand “I knew a scientist who…”, you should post specific studies that support their professional opinion.
I have one of two responses to this.
A) Bullshit.
or
B)You weren’t really paying attention.
I wasn’t saying either one of is right or wrong in this argument. I was pointing out that if someone announces that something isn’t “right” he is condemning it in so many words. If I say “smoking isn’t right”, I am condemning smoking. Now you can argue with me until cancer kicks in that you have a right to smoke and I won’t disagree with you but that doesn’t make my comdemnation of it any less evident.
I think we all posted pretty close to the same time, but the additional point made by Hastur:
is the most important point made thus far.
I thought about being a smartass and saying that I find it immoral to care who other people are sleeping with if you are not on the guest list for same, but then I realized that it’s not immoral…
You might say it is quite unethical, however.
Still, I’ll just say it’s a fucking waste of time.
That said, one is certainly entitled to waste his or her time by listening to NASCAR on the radio, cheating at Solitaire, posting to the Straight Dope Message Board, or worrying about whether what someone else is doing in the privacy of their own bedroom meets their personal definition of morality.
Saint Zero, I find comments such as yours repugnant because I like to stick my dick in things just like they do, but the thing I stick mine in happens to be of the opposite sex. Saying someone’s erection is more “immoral” than another is a silly game, don’t you think?
Hell, when asked by SanibelMan WHY you think the way you do, you couldn’t answer it with anything except for a variation of, “the Bible implies it.”
I humbly suggest you liaten to people on the subject. Fags like Esprix. Humanists like Phil. Christians who believe in that same book you revere, but look at them as differently as Libertarian and Lauralee. Jews who believe in the first part as much as you do like cmkeller.
Then, let your conscious be your guide, because I think that your conscience is just God’s voice here.
Esprix, whether you like it or not, a lot of people find your sexuality immoral. You know this. You really should pick and choose your battles. You saw how I responded to what was said - in fact, it was referenced above.
You should carefully choose your battles, Esprix. And this one doesn’t seem worth all of the trouble when there are some truly evil fuckers out there who should be dealt with.
Lauralee, I do have to ask you if you really equate stealing - taking something from people who do not want it taken from them - with homosexuality, something involving two consenting adults who might just love each other as much as you and your husband do. From my talks with you, while I know you think that homosexuality is wrong, I think that you can see a difference here.
To quote Tris, I think you’re going to see a lot of faggots in heaven.
I mean, someone has to pick out the drapes… 
Yer pal,
Satan
[sub]TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Four months, two weeks, three days, 34 minutes and 6 seconds.
5560 cigarettes not smoked, saving $695.12.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 2 weeks, 5 days, 7 hours, 20 minutes.[/sub]
"Satan is not an unattractive person."-Drain Bead
[sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey!*[/sub]
Satan, I love you.
Satan…
Which also assumes that homosexuality is only about sex. However, the point of your post is well taken.
Jack Batty…
And I was saying that NOBODY has said that homosexuality “isn’t right”. So far, all I’ve seen is people saying “I don’t agree with it.” There is no condemning going on, there is no announcement that homsexuality is evil, there is no crap like that going on except in your little peabrain, jackass. And you accuse ME of not paying attention?
Again, NOBODY is saying, as a fact, that homosexuality is bad. They’re stating their personal opinion, and you’re attacking them for it and shoving words in their (and my) mouth. Can’t stand the notion that maybe someone’s ideas vary from yours? Tough beans, friend.
The people who are saying homosexuality is immoral, according to Webster’s, are saying it is bad, by definition. If you are not saying homosexuality is immoral, then you are not one of those people.
The point of your post is taken as well, but just to clear my good name, I know that homosexuality is not only about sex.
HOWEVER, I am willing to bet that the sex act is the only thing which is what gets people to throw the word “immoral” around when discussing it. Heck, a bunch of Christian groups even say it’s not sinful to even think about having gay sex, but the act itself is the sin.
And since we are discussing the “morality” of homosexuality, I submit that the erection comment fits in this context.
Yer pal,
Satan
[sub]TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Four months, two weeks, three days, 1 hour, 3 minutes and 14 seconds.
5561 cigarettes not smoked, saving $695.22.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 2 weeks, 5 days, 7 hours, 25 minutes.[/sub]
"Satan is not an unattractive person."-Drain Bead
[sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey!*[/sub]
Spoofe, before start name calling, do yourself a favor and read the whole fucking thread.
Those were the statements, or least type of statements I was refering to. So who’s paying attention to what, dick-cheese?