Saint Zero Explains "Immoral" For Us

The BBQ Pit
61

I was thinking about this… you know, heterosexuality seems unnatural to me. I’ve never slept with a woman, as many of these men have never slept with another man.

The thought of sticking my dick in something that looks like a clam with a ZZ Top beard revulses me. I think heterosexuals should have the same rights to love and orgasms like we do, but that open area just creeps me out, and imaginging what they do in bed just strikes me as unnatural, morally wrong, and potentially expensive.

It is like I’ve told my straight female friends:
For a straight person, no matter what birth control you use, there is always the chance of conception. So, everytime one has sex, somewhere in that equation is the thought of a potential child.

For me, the only worry is death. Death doesn’t last 18 years. I don’t have to put death through college, and death will never eat all the food in the house, steal my money, and crash my car.

So… natural is in the eye of the beholder.

Surgeon General’s Warning: It is dangerous to read this post sans clue. Doing so could lead to misconceptions, jumping to conclusions, and inaccurate responses. Women are just fine, and the statements made were only for ironic counterpoint. As women inherently are smarter than men, this was just for men who would try to accuse the Surgeon General of misogyny, when he’s really the world’s biggest misandrist.

62

Well, I’ve just gotten home, and I read the whole thread. Most of what I wanted to reply to has been covered, but two things remain. First, agisofia said:

The first half of this directly implies that God made a mistake. Since that can’t be true by definition(God dosen’t make mistakes, he’s perfect), I would be interested in knowing if you would condone marriage or a marriage equivelent between same sex couples, and sex within the confines of that union as OK. If not, what do you base this on? As I see it, you are admitting that God created homosexuals. Sex can only exist withing the confines of marriage. Therefore, God condones same sex marriages. After all, he created these people to be homosexual, and marriage as the outlet for sex, so homosexuals should marry other homosexuals. Tell me where I’m wrong here, and base it on the teaching of God or Jesus from the NT. Paul was simply human, and as such, prone to mistakes, which I believe his two ( only TWO!! Lotta smoke from such a small fire!) passages reguarding homosexuality are, especially as they directly contradict the compassionate, accepting nature of Jesus’ teachings.

The second thing I noticed was that both Saint Zero and Lauralee said roughly the same thing:

Jack called them on it, but backed off when Lauralee replied:

This was, I think, a mistake. You don’t have sex with members of the same gender *because you’re not a homosexual!*Period! This is the crux issue. Morality, ethics, etc…these are simply smokescreens. I DON’T think that homosexuality is sinful, evil, morally wrong etc…Yet I don’t have sex with other men. Why not? Because I’m not gay! I don’t have to worry about getting sickle cell, because I’m not brown. I don’t have to worry about getting pregnant, because I’m not female. Do you see the pattern here? Lauralee, you’re right in one respect. It is none of our business, and it dosen’t give your opinion any more weight one way or the other, but that’s not the issue. The issue is you are either gay or straight ( or bi-sexual ). If you are gay, you are going to be sexually attractd to the same gender. If you believe this to be morally wrong, then you have a problem, but it dosen’t change the fact that you are gay. Pretty simple stuff, folks.

63

First of all, I’m not trying to support their professional opinion, that wasn’t my point.

The problem here is that whether or not a condition is a mental illness is pretty much a matter of opinion. There is no way to prove it one way or the other. In psych, it pretty much seems to be if it is causing the patient to be a danger to themselves or others, or if the patient is not happy with their condition, it is treated, if not it is left alone. Obviously, gays are not a danger to them selves or others, but some do want to change. I remember seeing a shrink who come up with a form of treatment(which may or may not have worked, thats not my point) for those who weren’t happy with their lifestyle, and wanted to change. He was on a talk show and was pretty much being blasted as being a bigot. He never could get word in, without being shouted down by the other people on the show.

ANYWAY, the point that I was trying to make wasn’t that the doctors I worked with were correct, but that there are different opinions out there, held by people who aren’t ignorant gay bashers, and that someone who has reached a different conclusion about a subject like this is not necessarily speaking out of fear, or hate, or ignorance. There are a lot of people who don’t believe that homosexuality is organic, but rather environmental. And at this time there is really no way to prove it either way. I believe in listening to all points of views respectfully with out resorting to name calling, or playing the bigot card. If you disagree, fine, state why, or ignore them, but don’t just automatically assume that the person is a bigot

64

(Sigh)
What’s a nice Catholic girl like me doing in a thread like this?

Ok, this is a Pit thread, and so far, people have managed to disagree with me without flaming me. I’m impressed.

Now…

No, if gay marriages were legalized, sex between gay married couples would not be peachy keen. Marriage to me is much more than a civil contract, it’s a religious covenant, and I do not belong to a religion that recognizes gay marriage. I do believe that there should be some civil provision for longtime companions, as far as inheritance rights, health insurance coverage, power of attorney, etc. are concerned, and this would include gay couples, but I wouldn’t recognize a gay couple as being sacramentally married.

And, no, I’m not implying that God made a mistake by creating gay people, any more than by creating handicapped people, or for that matter, people who spend a week out of every month feeling bloated and getting bitchy and crying at the drop of a hat, followed by a few days of bleeding like a stuck pig…

God has a reason for everything he does, and if He presents us with some kind of challenge or handicap, it’s because He expects us to learn and grow in some way, not to give in to temptation (although, contrary to what the Fundies would have you believe) if you do yield to temptation, He will forgive, but that’s another thread.

The point I was trying to make with the “plugged something in backward” comment it that homosexuals do not choose to have the feelings of sexual attraction for the same sex, anymore than heterosexuals choose to be attracted to the opposite sex. And if the Right Person never comes into my life, I am morally obligated to keep my legs crossed for the rest of my life.

I don’t think that being gay makes someone a bad person.

It just makes them…

Oh, hell, I can’t think of the right word.

65

The religious covenant and the civil contact are two separate things. The Catholic Church does not recognize non-Catholic marriages. Would you recognize a (heterosexual) marriage between a Catholic and a non-Catholic or between two non-Catholics? The Catholic Church does not.

There is also the little matter of separation of church and state. What the church does or does not recognize is not relevant to the issue of gay marriage.

66

There are a set of criteria against a mental condition is measured. If it meets those criteria, it’s a mental illness. There is more science than opinion to it.

Actually, I agree. Hence, I have never called anyone a bigot or a homophobe (though, if Califboomer were to rejoin the board I’d give him a piece of my mind). Nor do I try to shout down beliefs. However, I like to argue the logic behind opinions. So if you state something, I will challenge you to provide evidence to that line of thought.

67

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by beakerxf *
**

There are a set of criteria against a mental condition is measured. If it meets those criteria, it’s a mental illness. There is more science than opinion to it.

What criteria would that be? You talk to 100 differant shrinks and you will get 100 differant answers. Therefore, it is pretty much a matter of opinion. For instance, there are some who say that people whith MPD (multiple personality disorder), should be left with multiples, rather than tryning to get them back to jusf one. Others say that MPD doesnt really exist, that people with MPD are all faking it, and should be treated for that. Its not always that cut and dried.

68

Actually, I agree. Hence, I have never called anyone a bigot or a homophobe (though, if Califboomer were to rejoin the board I’d give him a piece of my mind). Nor do I try to shout down beliefs. However, I like to argue the logic behind opinions. So if you state something, I will challenge you to provide evidence to that line of thought. **
[/QUOTE]

In this case, what I was stating was that there are professional people who have a differant opinion. I cant really provide evidence to that line of thought. I really don’t know what causes homosexuality. I tend to believe it is more along the enviromental lines, but that is just an impression really. It’s not something I spend a great deal of time worrying about. I haven’t seen a great deal of evidence to prove it one way or another.

69

…but I will anyway :slight_smile:

Shortly after the murder of Matthew Shepherd, Tony Kushner (Angels in America, etc) published a piece accusing the Pope and Trent Lott of murder. His basic argument was that by promoting–or even allowing–the belief that homosexuality is wrong, they contributed to the hatred and violence that was responsible for the murder.

Here’s a copy of the piece, though the font is kinda sucky.

Now, obviously this is an extreme piece written largely to make a point in the most direct, blunt manner possible. There is, however, something to it. When you say “homosexuality is wrong/immoral/{insert word of choice here}”, you are promoting discrimination. You may not act on it personally, but you are still contibuting to the problem.

To put in it racial terms: I’m a middle class suburban white. I have black friends. I treat them just like all my other friends. I stick up for them. However, despite a liberal upbringing and my best efforts, I still get edgy sometimes walking through areas of Baltimore that are predominantly black (even the ones I know are safe). I don’t act on this, and I always feel terrible about it, because I know that I am a better person than that. Heck, I even lived in some of these places. But I am contributing to racism, even in a small way. This is the problem, not the KKK or Aryan Nation (they likely wouldn’t last 5 minutes in Baltimore City proper).

To bring it back to homosexuality: the same holds true. In a fundamentally decent society (which I think we have, at least to some degree), the subtle discrimination posed by saying “I believe homosexuality is immoral” * can * be far more damning than outright bigotry. This is not to say that it always is; beating a gay to death is a lot worse than disapproval. However, once the outright bigots find themselves out of power, it’s the petty discrimination that allows hatred to survive.

70

To the many Xians posting in this thread, saying they find homosexuality immoral, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but I do have a question:

Do you find it immoral because the Bible say so, or are you using the biblical injunctions to justify your own bigotry?

The point I’m making is, there are some 600 odd commandments in th OT and several more in the NT. In the OT, there’s the famous passage in Leviticus about homosexuality. Are you also following the other 599 odd commandments also? Have you abstained from eating shellfish? Wearing the color red or garments made of mixed fabrics? Have you allowed any witches in your neighborhood to live?

You can certainly follow the commandment about homosexuality, and I understand, but do you also follow the other commandments or are you just selectively taking what you want and ignoring the rest? I find that rather hypocritical.

In the NT, Jesus himself never mentioned homosexuality, tho Paul rants about it. See here for other possible translations.

You may find homosexuality immoral, but I think you’re just hypocritial by playing “pick and choose” with your own morality.

71

Excellent post, and one I hadn’t thought about.

Throwing additional inflammatory agents on the fire, isn’t there a theory out there somewhere that Jesus himself may have been homosexual? Sorry I have no links or cites on this one; just a theory I have heard bandied about for years.

72

“What does the church say about a guy who never marries, hangs out with twelve other guys, tells one guy he loves him, and kisses another? They call him a homosexual, and citing the bible condemn him to hell. Well, Jesus never married, hung out with the twelve disciples, said he loved Peter, and kissed Judas. Think about it.”

73

True enough. The standard definition of a mental illness is a condition that is described in the DSM. This means that psychiatric diagnosis is a matter of definition, not science.

74

. . .your boat, greatly against the stream
shake up old and tired beliefs and listen to 'em scream.

75

I believe Jesus said the old commandments of the old testament were the letter of the law, but we were and are now under grace. It does say Love God and your neighbor more than yourself is the greatest commandment.
But I Still think stealing is a sin.

76

Spider Woman wrote:

Throwing additional inflammatory agents on the fire, isn’t there a theory out there somewhere that Jesus himself may have been homosexual? Sorry I have no links or cites on this one; just a theory I have heard bandied about for years.

Also, at the Last Supper, it was either James or John who was laying in Jesus’s lap and to whom he whispered who would betray him. shrug

I wouldn’t call Jesus “gay” in the modern sense of the word. What the people of the Antique period thought of homosexuality and what we think of it now is quite different.

As for you other recent post, hey, let’s cut a demo tape with a few of the other SDMB posters and send it to the Pope. I’m sure he’ll love it or have a heart attack. snicker

77

There were lots of great posts in this thread, and I agreed with pretty much everyone. Which is kinda strange because everyone’s arguing.

It might be just me, here, but I’m having trouble figuring out exactly what the argument is.

78

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Myrr21 *
**…but I will anyway :slight_smile:
Now, obviously this is an extreme piece written largely to make a point in the most direct, blunt manner possible. There is, however, something to it. When you say “homosexuality is wrong/immoral/{insert word of choice here}”, you are promoting discrimination. You may not act on it personally, but you are still contibuting to the problem.

I am promoteing discrimination if I advocate discrimination against gays. I condsider drinking to excess imoral also, but that is not promoting discrimination against people who drink. I’ts quite a stretch to say people should carefull what they think because somewhere down the line it might cause someone else to hurt some one.

Again, it’s not the person that is immoral, but the action. In the case of the whole race thing, the issue is the person, not what they do. there is a very big differance.

79

By that definition most people who are bi-sexual have borderline personality disorder (acording to the DSM). The DSM is pretty much a guide, and is used more for insurance billing than actual diagnoses(at least the places I worked). In other words, if they meet this criteria, we can bill for this treatment. I used to sit around and read it when working the night shift. It is hardly the final word.

80

agisofia:

Well, why on earth not? After all, if marriage between homosexuals is legalized, then your argument against it just went right out the window. Oh. It’s because you belong to a religion that doesn’t recognize gay marriages. Well, then, that works out pretty well for you.

Also, as DrMatrix pointed out, the Catholic Church doesn’t recognize civil marriages either. Do you ever make posts to message boards decrying those who get married outside of the Church? Or only threads on homosexuality?

I’m just counting myself lucky that my marriage took place under the auspices of the Catholic Church, so that I don’t have to worry that I’m wrong.

Waste
Flick Lives!