Samclem - why was the "How many US Presidents have killed someone" thread locked

The BBQ Pit
21

Actually, there were no previous inhabitants. At least none that anyone knows about. Yes, the Cherokee later fought wars with other tribes, but their settlement into the Great River System was a part of the general migration of all Indians over the land bridge connecting Asia and North America, down the west coast and along rivers, and eventually to pristine wilderness in the Appalachian foothills. Borders were just natural obstacles and boundaries.

Here is a bit more information, if you’re interested, written by Jeremiah Wolfe, a Cherokee historian who might be the most versed person in the world on our oral traditions:

Fire in the Mountains

22

Certainly it was a tragedy, one that the US should be ashamed of. However, unless you think that the Cherokee never fought with other tribes and forced them off the land that the Great Spirit gave them, you have to say that no one has clean hands. The myth of the “noble savage” is just that.

w.

23

No offense, Lib, but that makes about as much sense as me getting cheesed off about the Potato Famine and cursing the name of Lord John Russell.

Let’s face it-history was full of rat bastards. Human beings are a scummy lot.

24

Yes, but Jackson has a reputation for being a great president, and, more importantly, a great American even beyond his presidency. He was, in fact, a rat-bastard, and I’m with Liberal - more Americans should know that.

25

That wasn’t his claim, that was the claim of whoever wrote the letter he was quoting.

26

You know, sometimes a little ignorance is easier on the spirit.
QG wiser; sadder

27

I agree. Really. When I started to learn some of the facts about Washington (slave owner) and Jefferson (slave owner, Sedition Acts) and others, it hurt. They, at least, have accomplishments that redeem their baser actions, and, in my opinion, vastly outshine their baser actions, making them the great people I still believe they are. Jackson has no such redemption. The more I have learned about him, the more I am purely disgusted.

28

His home, the Hermitage, is in Nashville. I’ve lived here as an adult for over forty years without setting foot in it. If I live another forty, I still won’t.

29

Is Lord John Russel on the 20 pound note? As **Frank ** said, Jackson’s reputation deserves to be made into what it really should be. The man was a horrible jerk. Lord Russell is already known as such, Jackson is not.

intention, aren’t you the same ignorant fuck that tried to ignore the evidence against global warming despite **jshore ** disproving your every point? Yep, I checked you are an ignorant tool. Fuck you and fuck your trolling. In fact a list of your threads seems to show you are a complete jerk. Hopefully you will slip up and get banned soon.

Jim

30

No offense taken. People react differently to poverty, ridicule, and prejudice. I’m glad for you that you did so well with it.

31

I think Jackson was a great man, a great president and a hero. :stuck_out_tongue:

Of course if you judge him- or nearly anyone else of that period- by the standards of today, he would be a rat bastard. But that is commiting the crime of “presentism”, like saying Jefferson was evil as he owned slaves. :rolleyes:

32

Yes but the Irish have done rather well for themselves since then. You know, being white and all.

33

It isn’t just standards of today; it’s standards of Western culture. While it might have been standard for Europeans to annihilate whole nations for more land and gold than they needed, it was not standard among the Cherokee — then or now. We were a decent and civilized people who bought into the whole Jeffersonian ideal of liberty and Madisonian ideal of constitutional law. In fact, we used their work as inspiration to create our own. But Andrew Jackal saw us as barbarians and savages, nonhuman obstacles blocking the path of manifest destiny. According to northeastern tribes, Washington used to peel the skin off dead warriors to make leggings for his troops. Compared to the Indian Hater, Washington was a friend.

34

What Exit?, the fact that someone says that they disagree with me would normally make me think that honorable men can hold different views on a complex subject. However, your crude abuse and infantile insults let me know that at least one part of that thought must be wrong …

Yes, Jackson was a complex man, both bad and good . Every culture has them, and the Cherokee are no exception. They killed their enemies, just as Jackson did. They dispossessed people from their land, the land the Great Spirit gave those people before the Cherokee stole it from them, just like Jackson did, just like every other culture has done since the beginning of time, from Papua New Guinea to Peru.

Now if you want to make a tragedy out of the fact that somewhere in the past your people got kicked off of their land, fine, that’s your right. But acting like your hands are clean, like your people never kicked anyone off of their land, or acting like this is something unusual in history, like it hasn’t happened all over the world since the beginning of time … none for me, thanks.

In 1755, the Cherokee fought the Creek Indians, defeated them, drove them out of all of North Georgia, and took their lands. Somewhere there’s probably a Creek Indian sitting around pissed off at the Cherokees for stealing his land … and the Cherokees are angry at Jackson … and the Armenians are still angry at the Turks about the 1911 massacre … and folks in the the South are bitter because they lost the Civil War … and … and … and …

Dear friends, at some point in history we need to give up yesterday’s feuds, we need to stop feeling depressed or angry about things that happened before we were born, and now seems as a good time as any … What Exit?, if you think that’s a stupid idea, feel free to speak up.

w.

35

Well, you won’t get any argument from me on that! He just seems to take it so personally, that’s all.

And really, how many historical figures have reputations for being great, when in reality they were just a bunch of assholes?

Lib, I’m not saying I don’t agree that Jackson sucked (I do feel bad about his wife, though-she didn’t deserve what she went through), but I guess it’s just that from studying history, I try to take a less, I dunno, emotional view. It doesn’t always work, but perhaps because I’m something of a cynic, and have a rather dim view of humanity-I think people, for the most part, are world-class shitheads. Hell, I get sick and tired of people lauding Reagan constantly, when his ass should have been in prison for some of the things he did.

So if I seem callous, I don’t mean to be-it’s more that I’m jaded. :wink:

(Dammit, you really have to start saying things that piss me off-I’m getting scared!)

36

In general, that’s true of me as well. But when you’re studying your history on the lap of your grandmother, sitting on a porch rocker while looking out over the land she’s teaching about, it’s a bit of a different context.

No problem. I’ve been far more callous in my history here than you have ever been. I’m old, but I’m still growing.

That’s not quite the way it happened. Once Europeans had forced the Cherokee to move west and had surrounded the Creek, tensions naturally snapped.

In the north, the western movement of the Cherokee bothered the Creek. At first the Cherokee contained themselves to land near the Tugaloo River to which the Creek had never laid claim. Even the land further north in Tennessee only had fleeting Creek inhabitants. Now the Cherokee had pushed deep into Creek territory. The battle of Taliwa (1755, multiple spellings) determined the Creek-Cherokee border. After five successful attacks by the Creek warriors the Cherokee were nearly destroyed, but the teenage wife (known today as Nancy Hart) of a dead chief picked up a weapon and advanced on the Creek line. This time the Cherokee overran the Creek, driving them south of the Chattahoochee River, which became the new boundary in Georgia.

Taliwa would be the last major battle fought between the Cherokee and Creek. Afterwards the Cherokee settled to the north of the river, Creek to the south.
http://ourgeorgiahistory.com/indians/Creek/creek01.html

37

You know what, my post was over the top and unfair. I am currently infuriated with everyone still trying to deny Global Warming is being caused by humans and trying to deny it can be corrected by human effort. This all came out in my post against you. It was actually rather cathartic, so thank you for being there in the way. Please forgive me for dumping on you. I still think you are wrong on both Global Warming and Jackson, but you did nothing to deserve my diatribe.

It would be far easier to forget his “bad”, if he was not on the $20 bill. Does that make any sense? We can learn from history, we can overcome history, we can forgive the past, but we should never forget or gloss over history.

Sure, prove you are not just a troll with such an eloquent statement for peace. Make me look like a bigger idiot. :wink:

It is not a stupid idea. Giving up yesterday’s feud is a fine idea. Not always easy and not always possible, but a good idea. As long as they are forgiven and not forgotten would be my amendment.

Jim {forgive the parsing, I know it can be annoying, it seemed needed in this case.}

38

I guess you could always scribble all over his portrait on the $20-it should still be valid.

39

I’ll also add, Lib, that your biased wording makes your point less likely to be taken seriously-at least in GD. I understand you’re angry, but when you’re trying to argue a point, it pays to not appear too emotional.

40

Right. Let’s not let our biases against policies of genocide and the betrayal of republican principles intrude into our discussions regarding past American heros. It might give readers the impression we’re close minded.

Besides, what possible relevance could such discussions have to the present day?