In a lot of Samurai movies you see the Samurai, when in a face off against an opponent, sheath their swords and face each other. Similar to a Cowboy Gun Duel. And after they do so, they run at each other and pull the sword out of it’s sheath and try to ‘cut’ each other in one foul swoop. In anime and in some movies it also shows some characters doing this against stationary objects and cutting them in half with apparent ease.
My question, is did this actually do anything for the cutting force or was this just, as I mentioned above, like a Cowboy Gun Duel where it depended more on your speed?
to answer your question simply: No. Sure it gave the sword more momentum, but a most swords of any quality could cut through a man with relative ease (if wielded by a trained swordsman). They were SHARP. It’s just kind of a more stylized aproach of showing a duel.
In reality, some Japanese sword styles did start with a sheathed sword (the one that immediately pops into my head is Iaido) but many started with the swords already drawn. What these movie duels show you is that most sword fights didn’t last more than a couple seconds (in Iaido, for instance, you kill with one blow, sometimes two, almost never three). If you need a cite for that… well, just use some common sense. We’re talking about people fighting without armor here, as samurai didn’t walk around in full battle regalia (even then, from what I’ve seen of it Japanese armor isn’t nearly as good as european armor. That’s opinion, though). So they only lasted a few seconds (after the swords start swinging) and usually ended in a blow or two. Make that all stylized and you get either the famous scene in several Kurosawa Akira movies in which two samurai face each other, than instantly they both draw and one falls, or the other style (common in anime) where they run at each other and same ending.
I do believe, though I’ve no cite, that they took some influence from western gun duels. I dunno if that’s true but I believe it to be, so therefore it has to be, right?
ETA: Scissorjack: Really? I always thought it was one fowl swoop, you know, like ducks and shit
Come on, unless you have some sort of monomolecular filament, cutting through a person is never going to be relatively easy. I have kitchen knives that are as sharp as any samurai sword ever was, but there’s no way they cut through bone with ease. It’s surely possible to cut through a limb or whatever, but it’s by no means easy.
Swords are a lot heavier than knives. I’d be hard pressed to believe that someone could hack through a spine and torso (with or without hitting ribs) in one slice, but chopping a hand off at the wrist? I’m guessing that’s not so far fetched.
The way I read PopeJewish’s point was that trained swordsmen could cut through a man('s vital sections, like the stomach or neck or thigh) with relative ease.
I would think that it would take great skill and a good strike to even lop off someone’s head. Mary Queen of Scots died after three blows of the axe, and they weren’t trying to be cruel. So while it can be done, it requires a very sharp and durable blade, and exquisite control and strength to cut through the torso. I recall hearing that some ancient Japanese swords were graded on quality based on how many slave bodies they cut through.
Miyamoto Musashi writes in The Book of Five Rings, in the Water Scroll;
“Striking down an Opponent in a Single Beat.
Among the rhythms used to strike an opponent there is what is called a single beat. Finding a position where you can reach the opponent, realising when the opponent has not yet determined what to do, you strike directly, as fast as possible, without moving your body or fixing your attention.
The stroke with which you strike an opponent before he has thought of whether to pull back, parry, or strike is called the single beat. Once you have learned this rhythm well, you should practice the intervening stroke quickly.”
Later on he writes;
“The Single Stroke.
This means to gain victory with certainty by the accuracy of a single stroke. This cannot be comprehended without learning martial arts well. If you practice this well, you will master martial arts, and this well be a way to attain victory at will. Study carefully.”
In other words, taking down opponents in a single sword movement was done, but in order for you to be successful you had to be at the top of your game.
Where do they find these idiots? Blades were never, ever rated by the number of bodies they could cut through, although the ancients did ocasionally use condemned prisoners for tameshigiri, or test cutting. Katana are sharp, but they aren’t that sharp; even if they were, they wouldn’t stay that way for long. Too thin an edge tends to chip and nick which is not something you want in a combat weapon. The cutting power of the blade comes not from absolute sharpness, but from the power and accuracy of the stroke and the drawing motion used during the cut. As with most edged weapons, technique is everything.
What Q.E.D said. Technique, blade geometry and power will determine just how effective a cut you will get.
Historical swords were NOT razor sharp. This would limit their use on the battle field and make the weapon prone to damage.
Keep in mind that much of modern Asian arts is very stylized and a lot of it, specially when you are talking about those subsets which are connected with historical arts of 15th 16th century does not completely resemble what was actually studied by the warrior class of the time.
Running at each other without drawing your sword seems to me to be begging to get killed. That is not to say that perhaps a ritualistic form of combat that worked that way or in some similar fashion did not exist. It just doesn’t seem likely to me.
As another poster mentioned above, it probably comes from modern, stylized/ritualistic martial arts, and just the fact that most sword fights were quick affairs much more likely to be over in seconds rather than minutes.
It’s video of the current ARMA head (John Clements) demonstrating some fearsome cuts with a longsword. A BLUNT longsword (as he demonstrates at the end of the clip). A typical historical piece meant for combat would of course have been sharper than that, but obviously, incredible damage can be achieved with pure technique.
S’truth. There were several “schools” – techniques – and endless debate as to which one was best. In Seven Samurai when Kambei comes to recruit Heihachi, he’s splitting wood and announces himself by name and “woodcutter school” – poking fun at this trope.
The thing to remember is that the movies, like our own Westerns, are romances, the way things shoulda been rather than the way they were.
On the “What can you cut through in a single blow” debate, Discovery Channel’s Time Warp did a couple of segments with either a Kenjutsu or Iado master, showing him cutting through rolled tatami mats:
They don’t have a clip of it up yet, but in a future episode (titled “Barefooter”, aired Dec 3rd) they bring the guy back and have him hack through pig legs and stuff. IIRC the sword is shockingly effective and 1-cutting.
Timewarp is pretty much WYSIWYG - they train high speed cameras on stuff and slow it way down. I make no claims about any assertions of the physics of the stuff they shoot, though.
As I understand it, the difference between a samurai sword’s effectiveness and, say, an executioner’s axe is that the sword’s curve and method of employment means that the blade slices, rather than chops. I’m shaky on the physics behind it, but the slice is a more efficient motion. I do know that that’s why the guillotine has the angled blade. Earlier versions of that device had a straight blade, and they essentially “crushed” the neck in two, rather than slicing it.
I went to see the clip you mentioned. blocked on my work PC for some reason. but the caption contains a serious error:
*Nearly 4 feet long, the curved Katana sword is made of steel folded 5,000 times. Its blade soars through this tatami mat, as dense as a human torso.
*
The steel is folded about 8 to 12 times when forging. Not 5,000 times.
Also, the blade geometry plays a part, but it’s debatable as to how much it matters in a realistic scenario.
The “folding number” is a common mistake. It arises from the fact that with each fold the number of layers increases exponentially, so folding 12 times leads to 2^12 “layers” (4096). It’s still just a gee-whiz number to throw out.
Curious: assuming for the sake of argument that rolled tatami mats are a decent substitute for a human torso, what parameters distinguish that from a “realistic scenario”
I can’t recall whether the “pig leg” test involved cutting through bone, damn it!
I’m no swordsman, but here’s what I understand about iai-do and similar styles from role playing in historical settings.
Apparently, the scabbard of the sword provides friction when trying to pull the sword fast, so you have to pull harder and use more force than for a normal swing, and when the sword leaves the scabbard, that extra force is set free, giving the blade a sudden burst of momentum that is harder to predict/dodge. Like, say, when you’re trying to pry a nail out of a board with pliers : the nail resists, and resists, and you pull harder and harder and then the nail loosens without warning and you fall on your butt. Same principle, only more controled. Now whether that’s true or false… heh. You’d have to ask a real 14th century samurai, I suppose
Besides that, the principle behind iai-do is also that one should never be defenseless, and be able to get from easy & relaxed to weapon in hand and one enemy dead in the blink of an eye. And that makes sense, of course, in a general, be_wary_all_the_time sense. But in a formal and arranged duel ? You *know *there’s going to be a fight, so entering the field in a state of rest doesn’t compute. I have a hard time believing it really happened that way, why give yourself a disadvantage if your foe is faster than you, or your blade heavier etc… ?
The truth is, like Western gun duels, Japanese duels have been way, way overplayed and romanticized in fiction, and samurais, their honor codes and their swords have likewise been put on pedestals in culture. So you have to bear that in mind as well - the reality was probably much less glamorous. Or cinematic
I didn’t say it was easy, but your analogy is a bit flawed. Your kitchen knives may be as sharp as a katana was (or ninjato, or whatever your poison. And while they weren’t razor sharp, they were damn sharp. All that folding of the steel really does help keep an edge on a blade) but as BellRung pointed out, swords are much heavier and a trained swordsman is putting his whole body into the cut. It’s not just a matter of sharpness, it’s a matter of power. You can cut through a spine with a sword. It ain’t easy, but if you trained with swords constantly for years and years as samurai (and western knights, for that matter) did, it’s not an impossible feat. Cutting through a limb is, obviously, much easier and will end a fight just as quickly.
this is true, the friction speeds up the blade and makes it more unpredictable to a point. I would point out here that one wouldn’t use Iaido in the middle of a large battle, but in a duel it would have definitely been a decent style. It uses a form of deceit. In Bujin-kan Ninjutsu do one of the primary stances is Shizen no Kumai, where you stand flat, arms at your side (but ready) and feet shoulder length apart. It allows you to fall back at off angels (usually 45 degrees) to avoid blows, or to attack quickly and catch your opponent off guard (though obviously you have a bit less power). It’s about catching your opponent off guard, making him guess when you’re going to strike, more than being an end-all-be-all of styles (of which there is none)
this is an important point. I believe the most realistic sword fight I’ve ever seen was in Rashomon, during one of the stories, where both the bandit and the samurai are scared shitless of each other and kinda swing wildly then running away from each other.
A lot of the samurai “ideals” came from the post sengoku (warring states) period, which is when books like The Hagakure (way of the samurai. written around 1716 though not published for years afterward) and others were written, during times of relative peace (the Tokugawa era), when they were looking back on the old samurai and saying how nowadays samurai have it easy and we should get back to the old way. They were very romanticized about “the old way” which debatebly never existed. This only increased with the movie/anime/manga industry, much as the idea behind the cowboy pistol duels (which I’ve heard, though have not read up on, rarely happened)
