"-san" on Japanese names

In My Humble Opinion
1

A Japan native in our company always puts “-san” on the end of our names when referring to us, and we automatically put -san on the end of his name when referring to him.

Today we just got another Japan native in our company, and when I was introduced, I automatically put the -san on the end of his name. He corrected me and said “no -san” on his name.

This got me thinking about the “-san”. Is this geographically used, perhaps? Is the -san not used in some parts of Japan?

Could it be a “while in Rome…” sort of thing?

What are the cultural rules in Japan about when to and when not to use -san?

Thanks,
J.

2

When I took Japanese, I was taught to put it on anyone’s name except my own. I never heard about any exceptions.

3

It makes me wonder if he has an attitude like people who say “Don’t call me Mr. Smith! Mr. Smith is my father. Call me John.”

4

The “-san” suffix doesn’t have a true equivalent in English, but it’s roughly the same as calling someone “Mr./Ms.” There is not, to my knowledge, any regional variation with this. In Japan it would be common to call your coworkers [family name]-san. You wouldn’t normally call someone by their personal name alone unless you were relatives or close friends. There are some other suffixes that are more familiar or more formal than “-san”, but “-san” is appropriate in most situations.

My best guess would be that either your new coworker felt it was awkward to use “-san” outside Japan or that he thought this was too formal for a Western work environment where you presumably don’t call each other Mr. Smith and Ms. Jones all the time.

5

The -san ending is a gender-neutral suffix conveying respect to the person you’re talking about. When I studied Japanese I was taught that omitting -san was a nontrivial slam. You just didn’t do it unless you were looking to brew up some bad blood. Scandalous but bold when a news reporter omits it when talking about a disgraced politician.

I could see an open-minded Japanese person wanting to have it omitted if they were trying to blend in with Western culture, just like you’d want to use it if you were trying to blend in over there (limiting your gaijin profile).
ETA: Damn! Ninja’d twice!.

6

An interesting detail about this is that the (original) Japanese guy puts -san at the end of our first names: Bill-san, Mary-san, etc. when referring to, or addressing, us. He is referred to by his last name -san. I suppose that’s just our cultural habit. We use first names, they use last names.

J.

7

It’s my understanding that you’re not supposed to use “-san” when addressing someone by their full name, or with another honorific title already appended. For example, when speaking to the host from the original Iron Chef, you would say “Chairman Kaga” or “Kaga-san”, but never “Chairman Kaga-san” which would be equivalent to saying “Mr. Mr. Kaga.”

But my actual hunch is that the OP’s acquaintance was merely annoyed that we dirty uncultured Americans can’t get the subtle intonations right. :slight_smile:

8

Given and family name, as Japanese “last names” come first.

How does the translation of Catch 22 render Major Major Major Major?

9

Two possibilities:

[ol]
[li]Prefers to use English conventions when speaking English.[/li][li]Gave you his/her given name to use. In this case, the さん (san) suffix feels awkward, like calling Bob Smith “Mr. Bob”. Either Mr. Smith, or Bob would be okay, but the odd mixture of a formal title and first name is offputting for most people in either language.[/li][/ol]

On a related note, I’ve been living and working in Japan for nearly 15 years, and while I can usually guess which name is which, some people try to be “friendly” to foreigners by flipping the order of their names even while speaking Japanese. This leads to some confusion if they have an unusual family name or a family-sounding given name. Annoying. I’m fluent in Japanese, just pretend I’m Japanese, thanks, and keep the goddamn order the same to save me some mental guesswork while I’m desperately trying not to forget names, which usually go through my mind like water through a sieve.

Everyone is taught the, “please call me _____” construction starting in their first English classes, so most of the time if they use English it’s far less of a problem.

10

But it’s perfectly cromulent in Japanese to be Mr. Bob, no?

Doesn’t help in conversation, but some will CAPITALIZE their family name which helps a lot. I have seen it in some European languages as well, but that isn’t as helpful, except in Hungarian and maybe in French which has many last names which are the same as first names (although that occurs in English too, and especially today many kids have first names like Hunter).

11

Generally, in Japanese, you use -san with first names. However, in Japanese, the first name is the surname or family name, and the second or last name is the given name.

Of course, when speaking in English, the order of the names is often reversed to fit into the general pattern in English – so what you call his “last name” is probably his first name or surname in Japanese.

The reverse does not happen: when you speak or write English names in Japanese, you keep the English order: John Smith would be “Jon Sumisu” (pronounced more like “Jon Smis”), and would probably be addressed as “Jon-san”, not “Sumisu-san”.

But, if your name is Bill, and you want him to stop calling you “Bill-san”, just say something like, “Please just call me “Bill”. You don’t have to use “san” with me.” That sort of thing is perfectly normal in Japanese culture, and doesn’t imply that the person was making a social faux-pas. It just means that you think it’s appropriate to be more informal.

12

Japanese language reflects an acute cultural awareness of social rank in many ways. Linguistically, the -san in the Japanese language is called an Honorific and it is tacked on as a suffix. In English and many other languages, equivalent honorifics precede the person’s surname and are tacked on as separate elements. An easy rule-of-thumb is to understand the -san to be like…

Tanaka-san = Mr. Tanaka
Matsumoto-san = Ms. Matsumoto

However, as can be expected, rules of thumb don’t fit all situations. As with any language, there are variations on forms of respectful address. For instance, while -san is an indicator of the speaker’s respect for the addressee, it’s also possible to use -sama as a suffix instead. One could understand -sama to be an expression of deeper-than-normal respect for the addressee, for instance in the case of a peasant or merchant speaking to a samurai or higher noble or official. An English (though perhaps not American) equivalent would be like…

Okami-sama = Sir Okami
Miyano-sama = Lady Miyano

…and there is also the option of appending an addressee’s title to the surname like…

Okano-kacho = Group leader (Supervisor) Okano
Minami-hanshi = Regional leader Minami

…and then, to throw a wrench in the works, people who have gained superior education in a particular field are often called -sensei. Many of you may be familiar enough with that practice from an involvement in martial arts, but the honorific is not limited to teachers. It was perfectly acceptable* for me to refer to my conversational English student as Masutani-sensei. He was my student and he called me Grestarian-sensei, but he had earned the honorific of sensei because he was an abdominal surgeon. If you followed rule #3 above, you would call him Masutani-isha, but that’s not correct.

Furthermore, to throw a wrench in the wrenched works, the native Japanese teacher that I dated while I was over there teaching explained to me that it’s perfectly acceptable to use -sensei, but not other honorifics with a given (first) name. Thus, many of the other teachers at that school regularly called me Grestarian-sensei but calling me Grestarian-san was technically incorrect+. Many of my fellow sword students in America got into the habit (e.g. Jeff-san!) and our Japanese instructor had long since given up trying to correct us.
If your Japanese coworkers are calling you (surname)-san, they are addressing you formally – and perhaps maintaining a social distance by doing so. That could mean he/she doesn’t feel comfortable addressing you casually (I am not worthy) or he/she doesn’t feel comfortable being addressed casually (Hey, I’m your manager; don’t call me “chum”). If your Japanese coworkers are telling you to drop the -san, they are giving you permission to discard the formality and its attendant social distancing. As with culture and customs everywhere, don’t bother trying to analyze it; just comply with the requests.

–G!
When on Mars, breathe like a Martian.

  • In fact he was pleased and somewhat surprised that I knew the correct protocol.
  • She also pointed out that, while a Westerner would say, “Hello, I’m Mister Jones.” a Japanese person generally wouldn’t say, “I’m Midori-san.” but would, instead, say something more like “I’m Ryotaro Midori.” and those who address (or refer to) him would use the appropriate honorific suffix when necessary.
13

Would any of the Japanese experts care to expound upon this?

14

I think that would be pretty unusual in Western culture, unless there was a large social distance. The only case where I think it might be appropriate would be a grade school teacher introducing themself to their class. If I were the lowliest employee in a multi-billion-dollar company, and the CEO ran across me at work, I’d expect him to say something like, “Hello, I’m Bill Jones.”

15

“San”, which is derived from the more formal “sama” is an honorific title to bestow respect. It is informal and is used in daily interaction to refer to not only people, but to establishments as well, ex., sushiya-san, (the sushi establishment).

I’m suppose the first Japanese native was being polite by adding –san to your name, while the second Japanese person declined the –san on his name because he didn’t care for the honorifics when dealing with non-Japanese people in a non-Japanese culture.

I’m the same. Whenever I meet foreign clients and they add –san to my name, I just tell them to call me by my first name. I also do not bother adding –san to their names as well. However, I would not be able to get away with dropping the –san to a Japanese person even if we were dealing outside of Japan.

16

Generally yes, -san is added to the surname, but if you are on friendly terms, adding it to the given name is just as common. To this day my wife adds –san to my first name whenever she calls me. I told her when we were dating it wasn’t necessary but she said she felt more comfortable this way. The fact that I’m 14 years her senior might have something to do with it though. I do not add -san to her name and call her by her given name.

17

The most common way for Japanese wives to address their husbands is just as “anata”, which literally means “you”. Perhaps she doesn’t think that right, because you aren’t Japanese. The infinite subtleties of Japanese names and honorifics …

18

What makes you say that?

“Anata” was used back in my parents generation and before. Personally, I don’t know of any modern wives using this to call their husbands, although I’ll admit I’m not privy to all their private conversations. When we are with our married-couple friends, the wives will call their husbands by their first name, sometimes with -san, or will call them “papa” if they have children.

19

I first saw this convention in Esperantist circles, and later I noticed it in the web version of the CIA World Factbook (e.g. Mohamed NAJIB bin Abdul Najib Razak and Janos ADER for some reason and MA Ying-jeou). Both cases were casual internationalism is normal.

20

Hungarian names are the sole exception to the European Firstname Lastname formula. E.g. the native form of Edward Teller is Teller Ede.