Seems like the key issue here is the missing docs. Are they actually just copies, meaning that the originals still exist? If there are no originals, one certainly might conclude that he was trying to remove something from the record. If the originals still exist, then it appears he made a very sloppy error.
I also have to wonder, how does someone get out of the archives withou having his briefcase searched? Why weren’t the lifted docs caught as he was exiting?
Neither do I have to give a shit. Who cares? Clearly you do, but as yet you haven’t given us any rationale behind that except a pretty clear desire to have us all gasping in horror and dismay.
Have you anything that might inform me as to the importance of these documents and notes? Being as they are “archived”, one gathers the implication that they are historical in nature, which is to say, nothing therein is of any pressing significance in the here-and-now.
Here’s my WAG: Sandy was sent to peruse the archives looking for “gotchas!” Anticipating that someone at the testimony would say something like “How do you account for your Oct. 11, 1999 memo ordering nuclear codes be translated into Arabic and scattered throughout Baghdad?” “No, no, we have a copy of the OCt. 11 memo, and it is a recipe for Hillary’s coconut macaroons…” He found something potentially worrisome, or potentially exculpatory, and wanted to be sure he had the dates and such correct. Technically, he shouldn’t have done it, and I suppose some sort of administrative sanction is in order.
But unless you have some reason to believe that these documents contain some dreadfully significant “operational” information, I am inclined to shrug, yawn and move on. Truth be told, I had pretty much forgotten who Sandy Berger is.
So, again, I must ask: why should I care?
And now I have to believe you’re trying to minimize what Berger did, and deflect attention. Bacause clearly the missing documents were significant.
From the AP article:
Now, it’s no great stretch to see how terrorists, of any stripe, might find this information useful, even today.
Do you care now, elucidator? Or is this no big deal to you?
pants? I’ve heard socks. Socks sounds bad.
I’m just hearing that myself now.
That does sound bad.
Not really a good assumption. We’re not talking about musty, old, pre-WWII stuff, here, but material that relates to things that have happened within the last ten years. The material is “archived” simply because no one can keep that much stuff in the “active” drawer of the file cabinet, so to speak. The stuff has to be stored somewhere, and that’s what the National Archives and Records Administration does, on behalf of other Federal agencies.
It’s entirely possible, for example, that some of these documents mention pro-American officials in otherwise hostile governments, folks who, if their identities were revealed, could disappear into their countries’ prison systems. Some of these documents could reveal how U.S. intelligence services get some of their information, and having those methods revealed could show the bad guys how to cut off that information flow.
On the other hand, some of the classified documents may contain the menu from a gala luncheon held in the Old Executive Office Building. That’s the problem with our “system” of classifying documents. Administrations of all stripes have routinely stamped “Top Secret” on anything and everything. Some things, if revealed, could endanger people’s lives. Other things would merely embarrass someone. Still others could be made public without having any effect on anything or anyone. No one’s ever figured out how to fix this problem, but that’s the subject for another thread entirely.
And so you insist. Why? You are aware, are you not, that the incidents under investigation occured months ago? Do you think there is something there of immediate and urgent significance, beyond merely historical interest? If I were to guess, as I’ve said before, this probably had more to do with ass-covering in the political sense. Note the word “probably”, because I don’t know D for diddly-squat and I hasten to point out neither do you.
Yes, it is a stretch, it is indeed a stretch, it is trying to inflate a Japanese condom into the Hindenburg. If terrorists are looking to formulate another dastardly plot, they want information about today, not what happened two years ago. Even if they found some crucial weakness in documents from the Clinton era, they would still need to find out if that weakness were still there today!
These days, the Admin stamps “Super Duper Top Secret, Burn Before Reading” on every shred of paper that comes to hand! If your stuff isn’t at least “Confidential”, you work in valet parking. The estimates on jute production in Gabon and Sierra Leone are probably at least “secret”, the mere fact that a piece of paper has been classified as “confidential” means right next to nothing.
The very fact that he is reading them, much less given access to copy them means (either or both) that Mr. Berger is cleared and privileged for such access, and that the documents in question aren’t desperately important. If we trust Mr. Berger to know what the documents say, if we trust his judgement in that regard, why should we get our knickers all in a twist because he has a physical copy of what he already knows? It’s the knowing that is crucial in security matters, not the physical possession of paper!
You don’t know, and I don’t know, what those documents are about. When you do know, maybe, just maybe you can speak informatively about thier significance. Until such time, you are indulging in pure speculation.
Wake me when you know something.
Then, I assume you must have gone completely ballistic when you heard that someone in the current U.S. government apparently gave Chalabi the info about the broken Iranian codes that he then passed on to the Iranians. There, we are not talking about what might happen if sensitive info got into the wrong hands by some highly hypothetical series of events; rather, we are talking about sensitive info that did indeed get into the wrong hands.
If you would kindly direct me to your postings on that subject, I’ll form my own judgement in regards to your evenhandedness.
At the very least, this is really sloppy on Berger’s part. I think he should resign as National Security Advisor immediately. Anybody in fact whose work in roles of national security is so slipshod, particularly if confidential information is leaked, or if devastating errors are made as a result, should step down immediately or be removed from office. Those in charge should take responsibility just as Berger did. Right? Do you agree as to remedy, Mr. Moto?
Good thing this story just happened to come to light right now, huh? Considering that the FBI hasn’t even bothered to interview him yet, clearly they didn’t recognize the importance of the matter. But at least we have this story to focus on, with no other news of note coming out to distract us from Sandy Berger.
How’s about I direct you here instead.
You’ve had two posts now where you’ve used this little logical fallacy.
When you come back, why don’t you address the problem at hand.
Mr. Moto:
I guess your response is a round-about way of admitting that breaches by a former Clinton Administration official get you more exercised than much more serious breaches by a current Bush Administration official.
I’ve already addressed the problem at hand when I said:
However, unlike you, I also think it is important to keep it in perspective, especially in regard to transgressions of current government officials.
Carry on.
I think there hasn’t been enough information released about this incident to brand it properly as a major security breach or a trivial goof. I’m initially inclined to suspect this is leaning towards the “goof” end of the scale, just because the idea of any government official shoving classified papers be’twixt his underwear is just so Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!-inducing. 
No, I’m perfect willing to condemn the supreme series of fuckups that allowed that material to get to the Iranians. But saying that I don’t care just because I haven’t posted about it yet is a strawman.
Is that clear, jshore?
What’s your point? Should we ignore this particular (potential) wrongdoing because someone else did something worse? It’s in the news today, so it makes a lot of sense that someone would start a thread about it.
I’m sure you don’t need to be reminded that the rightness or wrongness of Berger’s action have absolutely nothing to do wtih whether or not **Mr. Moto ** is evenhanded.
This whole incident points to a huge problem. The government is increasingly classifying more and more material, and the number of people with security clearances is absurd.
There are roughly 3 million people with security clearance. That’s too many, and it means way too much information is classified if that many clearances are actually required to run the government on a day-to-day basis. The more information that is classified and the more people that receive clearance, the greater the chance that something important is going to get compromised. There is certainly a ton of information that is classified that does not actually need to be classified for national security reasons.
Exactly.
I don’t understand what there is to debate about Berger. If he is charged with a crime and found guilty he will do time. So what?
Berger isn’t giving advice to any government official. He can go on TV and recommend governmental actions 'til he’s blue in the face but nobody with the authority to act in the name of the US is listening.
Whether or not Berger made a stupid mistake is of no consequence to life on these favored shores.
Maybe he compromised information that affects the national security but I don’t see a debate there. What is the debate there? Resolved: If Berger compromised national security he should be punished? At least that debate shouldtn’t take up too much time.
Why all the fuss in this thread? Could it be a personal agenda?
I certainly don’t deny any of this. But the National Security Advisor to the President will have a clearance, regardless of how many other people in the government have it. And with that clearance should come a working knowlege of the handling procedures for the material involved.
It doesn’t affect the case of Sandy Berger at all, to my mind.
If it were an honest mistake, that Berger accidentally took the papers while putting away his own documentation, why didn’t he return it immediately upon discovering what he’d done?
The fact that he waited until the FBI came knocking on his door is somewhat suspicious.
And I absolutely believe if he were a Republican operative, the news media would be all over this.
At the very least, it looks bad.
Agreed. However, as I noted, the issue is a matter of keeping these various things in perspective.
As David Simmons noted, there really isn’t much of a debate here, so this thread seems to mainly come down to pointing out a news item because it fits in nicely with one’s ideological agenda (“Look what this bad former Clinton Administration official has done”). That is all well and good, but then it seems reasonable to point out how serious this seems to be in the context of other bad (in fact, worse) things being committed by people who are currently in power.
Right…Because the “liberal media” has surely been so tough on our current President?! :rolleyes:
By golly, I’m convinced! The scales fall from my eyes, my position changed accordingly!
Clearly, any administration or government official who cannot be trusted to zealously guard confidential documents and/or information, must be purged from the public trust!
For instance, if (hypotheticly…) a government official, or elected official, or White House staff were to (just as a “for instance”…) release the name of a covert CIA operative to a partisan pundit to discredit an administration critic (I know, pretty wildly unrealistic, but we’re just spitballing here…), then those persons and all such persons who had any involvement should be summarily drummed out of the public service!!
As it happens, the Clinton Administration is no more, so we need not be distracted, we can move right along briskly to more immediate matters…
Yes, indeed! Splendid idea! Thrilled to have your unqualified support, Moto