Saudi Arabia is a disgusting cesspool. If we were serious about the war on terror they’d be the biggest target.
Saint Joan of Arc! So now he’s an impotentate. Better than being unimpotent. As they say rat cheer in parts of the South.
Can’t fight the War On Terror without plenty of oil, now can we?
Oh c’mon, you know this one.
Maleficia is a discipline in Vampire The Dark Ages.
Diabolism is not.
RE European Witch Trials
Cows, Pigs, War And Witches- The Riddles Of Culture makes a great case that the witch trials were a case of the nobility and church wagging the dog. Why do we need such high taxes? What do we do with all our money? Why do we deserve our status and why shouldn’t you revolt? umm Witches! We need the money to fight witches! You shouldn’t revolt because then there’d be nobody to protect you from the threat of witches!
It’s more complicated than that and there are cites. It convinced me.
That I understand. What I don’t understand is why things like alchemy or other “high” forms of magic were acceptable/semi-acceptable while other low forms weren’t. Even so called good magic wasn’t acceptable to the authorities.
Marc
Man, I can’t wait for controlled fusion…
Except that, as noted on the neo-pagan website, tangledmoon.org, the church(es) tended to oppose the belief in witchcraft much more than they opposed the practice of it and it appears to have been pretty rare that witch hunts were begun from the top of the social pyramid.
I was going to say the same thing. Magic I tell you.
This is a third-hand story, so take it with a pinch of salt.
I met a girl the other night who told me she used to work for a UK arms dealer*. On one occasion, she said, her boss was invited to a football (soccer) match in Riyadh. The pre-show entertainment was to parade a man and a woman round that had been caught in adultery. They shot the man through the back of the head, and before the baying crowd, the relatives of the woman were made to stone her to death. The bodies were removed, the bloody canvas rolled up, and the match began.
Our allies.
*She was in a secretarial position for what she thought was a construction company with contracts in the Middle East. When she found out what it was that the company did, she left - and was given a £10,000 payoff, which she claims to have donated to charity because it was “bad money”.
Now, now, we can’t (as denizens of Western culture and inheritors of the Enlightenment) claim to be in any way superior. If we look at our society really hard, I mean squint and cock your head sideways, you can find a handful of extreme religious nutters that are laughed at by almost everyone BUT STILL, I TELL YOU!!! would implement just the same kind of thing here IF THEY HAD THE CHANCE!!!
One of these days, I would love to see a headline like this:
“Feminist terrorist group bombs head cleric’s house in Riyadh–
4th attack with note reading ‘Let us be free --Saudi women’ left at scene.”
I think the problem is they are mixing religion and government. No good has come from that dangerous concoction.
There were certainly educated members of society who believed that many of the women, men, and in some cases even children put on trial weren’t really guilty of either diabolism or malefica but were instead insane or suffering from some other affliction. Many of these people still believed Witchcraft was real they just didn’t think it was as prevalent as was generally believed.
Following the wake of the Trier persecutions from 1581-93, where even Judges, two Burgomasters, Councilors, canons, and parish-priests fell victim, canon Linden wrote very critically of the affair. He reprints the confession of Cornelius Losaeus Callidius who was in big trouble for writing a book called On True and False Witchcraft where he dared to the following:[ol]
[li]No compact does or can exist between the Devil and a human being.[/li][li]There is no sexual intercourse between the Devil and human beings.[/li][li]“Though shall not suffer a witch to live” is to be understood of those who by a natural use of natural poisons inflict death.[/li][li]etc.[/li][/ol]
Callidius appears to be one of those people who didn’t think it was real at all. His assertions that it was false pissed off Octavius the Bishop of Tricarico and he was locked up at St. Maximin near Trier. He recanted his position in the face of torture.
Interestingly enough there was a torturer in Bamberg in 1628 who may or may not have believed in witchcraft but he may have encouraged at least one of his victims to give a false confession. Johannes Junius, former Burgomaster at Bamberg, was put to the torture but refused to confess to renouncing God. Thumbscrews, leg screws, and finally the strappado but still he proclaimed his innocence. Finally the executioner (was was the one torturing him) said the following:
The above quote comes from a letter that Junius wrote while in jail to his daughter Veronica and had smuggled out to her before his execution. I can’t really vouch for the authenticity as I’ve never seen the original.
It’s true that most witch hunts did not begin from the top and go to the bottom. When a peasant was accused it was usually one of his neighbors. Nor were accusations sudden events. Typically someone might be suspected of it for a number of years before finally being charged with something and brought to trial.
Marc
Why get outraged now? The Saudi judicial system is not new.
We’ll know that America gives a god damn what our allies do on the day that Americans stop bitching about high gas prices and start driving less. Or demand cars with better gas mileage. Or demand solar and geothermal power. Or stop voting for scions of dynasties that are hand-in-glove with the Saudi royal family.
Or when we convince our elected government officials that Americans do not torture prisoners.
She didn’t weigh more than the duck. Or she was made of wood, or something like that.
I can’t really rebut as I can’t find my copy of Harris’ book.
I don’t think they really were. Though there was a tolerance between sacrificial magic and more rational forms. Mixing elixirs from chemicals was a bit different from sacrificing babies. Also, Doctors who examined cadavers were often persecuted by the church.