So the former casting has occurred in the Ghost in the Shell movie, which retains all names from the very Japanese manga and anime. The defense of some people at this casting reminded others of the time there were Internet suggestions of Idris Elba for the next Bond. Several, including Roger Moore, commented he wasn’t right for the part, for… physical reasons.
Is there any difference between the two situations in your mindsets?
I don’t think the complaints about white washing should apply to ghost, other than the name of the cyborg, in anime she and several other members of the team are distinctly caucasian. I’m not sure if that was intentional on the part of the animators, to syndicate the show in the states, presumeably with a more caucasian name. Which did not happen as far as I know.
Other anime of the same vintage, ala Star Blazers, Capt Harlock, Robotech dont really appear to have any Asian characters.
Bond, I think that we retconned the character to be a legend. Race and physical characteristics will vary by individual, but they are all called Bond, other wise the dude would be the oldest spy in Mi6
Declan
Imagine you’re at a party, and are introduced to a black man named John Grey. He has an English accent. Do you do a double take?
Later, at the same party, you’re introduced to a very nordic looking white woman. She introduces herself as Mariko Kiriyama. Do you do a double take now?
No, she isn’t. Nor most of the other characters. (Batou, maybe.)
They’re distinctly cartoon characters. They’re perfectly Asian looking if you don’t go into it with the assumptions based on how western cartoons caricature Asian characters - either with an Asian default as the intended audience would, or with the context-dependent eye of an informed viewer.
Yes: Major Kusanagi is a full 'borg. Scarlet Johanssen’s face is not meant to be the face of a Japanese woman, it is the face of a machine inhabited either by the mind of a Japanese woman, or an effigy of such.
Yeah, this. There’s no reason she even has to use a female body, much less a Japanese one.
Now, I have other problems with Johanssen being cast in this role, but it’s got noting to do with her skin and hair.
No, she isn’t. This displays a complete lack of understanding of how Japanese animation represents people.
Yes, because there’s no way that a Japanese woman living in Japan, who identifies herself with a Japanese name, would want to look like a Japanese woman.
It’s particularly weird because she starred in a film that was at least in part about how weird Japan is.
Yeah, a pretty huge one:
How many English-language movies are made every year with a white guy in the lead? Tons. Recast Bond as a black guy, there will still be tons. The vast majority of movies made in English in a given year are going to star white guys.
How many major starring roles are there in English language films that star Asian people? There aren’t a lot, are there?
That’s the difference. Casting this character as a white women erases one of the very, very few starring roles that might have gone to an Asian actor. Casting Bond as black doesn’t significantly change the visibility of white people in movies.
Isn’t Kusanagi deliberately cagey about whether her original ghost is even female? Am I misremembering?
The fact she doesn’t have to be female was addressed in the show. She does it out of preference of being a female. Whether or not that female should be Japanese isn’t mentioned, and she’s very aware that this isn’t her natural body, or what she would necessarily look like. She could look/perform like Batou if she wanted to. I don’t see anything inherent to the story requiring a person who looks Japanese to play the role, just a female. Most of the synthetic bodies and androids in the show do not look especially Japanese, which I think was probably a conscious decision on the part of the show’s creators. The reps from the American Empire aren’t really visually different from most of their Japanese counterparts.
Also, in response to the chorus of “everyone but Batou looks Japanese on the show!”. That’s great, but those characters weren’t all supposed to be Japanese. For example, Saito was met while the Major was fighting in Mexico. Unless Japan was supplying forces to both sides, it seems unlikely that he’s Japanese. Other than the Major, Aramaki, Ishikawa and Boma, we don’t know much about the nationality of the characters.
ETA: Headrush042, I do know that it’s covered in Stand Alone Complex that she was born a female.
ETA2: In reference to the OP, I’d have no problem with Elba as Bond.
Except, of course, for the fact that he has a distinctly Japanese name.
Might he have been a Mexican citizen? (Since he was explicitly a mercenary, his fighting for the Mexican government doesn’t actually imply that at all, but let’s go with it, anyway.)
Sure. But that wouldn’t make him not Japanese, except by citizenship.
And might Kusinagi have decided to have a white body, despite being a Japanese person living in Japan? It’s possible. Incredibly unlikely, especially given the complete and total lack of anything related to a comment on that, despite regular discussion of her body. But, you know, it’s possible.
It’s also possible that before cyberfication she was a white American named Bubba and just made up her history as Makoto Kusinagi as a cover story. But that’s also incredibly unlikely.
Anime almost never draws Japanese people differently from anyone else. When it does, it usually just a few stereotypes.
Just google anime and look at Google images. Nearly all the characters you see will be Japanese, but not look it. Yes, even the blonde girls with blue eyes.
I’m not sure how I feel about this particular show, since I’ve not seen it. But I do know that any claim about anime characters “not looking Japanese” is silly, because Japanese is the default in anime.
We know is Batou is from America, but does not have a name that is commonly associated with there. So that really doesn’t carry much weight. It’s pretty obviously an international team.
This very discussion has been blowing up my Facebook feed. It’s pointed more at Johanssen/Asian actor than at Elba, which I find interesting.
Concerning James Bond.
Bond is supposed to be ~40. He also went to some Eton type school. I can’t remember the name or even if it’s real, but it’s a defining characteristic of the character.
In the Roger Moore era that would have meant that Eton had a Black student in the 1950s. That seems unlikely and, even if it happened, would be so distinctive as to make him unsuited for work as a secret agent. In short, in the 1980s a Black bond would have been unsuitable simply because it required to much explaining.
Today, Bond would have been at Eton in the 1980s. While I’m sure that Black students are rare even now, I’m equally sure there are a handful in every year. So a Black bond today is about as remarkable as a Scottish bond in the 1960s.
So as far as that goes, who cares if Bond is played by a Black bloke? Bond isn’t defined as being White. Bond is meant to be an upper-middle class orphan with an upper class upbringing. In 1960 that meant White. In 2016, that character could as easily be Black as White and could probably be more easily Asian than White. So a Black Bond? Sure.
Concerning Makoto Kusanagi.
Basically, what Miller and Kamino Neko said.
The character is masquerading as a woman with a Japanese name living Japan. The idea that the character might not be Japanese in appearance is as jarring as a Black Bond in the 1980s: unsuitable simply because it required to much explaining. Sure it can be fanwanked (scriptwanked?) away, but that is adding an element to the character that wasn’t in the original source, and done for no better reason than to allow the character to be played by a White woman.
And as Miller said, there are literally millions of Hollywood roles each year for White actors and thousands of starring roles in big budget productions. Rewriting a minority character to allow it to be played by a White person is stealing food from beggars. It’s really is mean and hurtful and insensitive.
I get why the studio is doing it. Johansson is a really bankable star right now. But she’s bankable because she got a break as a young actress in a big name films with big name stars based on big name novels and comic books: Ghost World, Horse Whisperer, Virgin Suicides etc. By casting Johansson the studio is denying exactly the same opportunity to an Asian actress. This project is much a sure fire hit as Ghost World or The Horse Whisperer, and they are depriving some Asian up-and-comer of her chance.
This is a classic example of the circularity of the system. Young minority starlets are locked out of the good projects because “nobody wants to see them”. But nobody wants to see them because they are never given a chance to gain recognition as young stars. Minority actresses likes of Thandie Newton or Halle Berry have to spend years garnering a reputation before they are given a shot at a major role at the age of 30, while White actresses like Johansson are given major roles as teenagers. For actresses, stardom at 30 allows at best allows a career of 10 years before they are ‘too old’.
So of course nobody wants to see minority actresses: minority actresses aren’t stars. And minority actresses can’t be stars because nobody will cast them in safe movies as teenagers or twenty-somethings. And nobody will cats them because nobody wants to see minority actresses.
There’s a hole in the bucket , dear Liza.
To then take one of the very few roles that could be a vehicle for a minority actress and hand to to a White woman is mean and hurtful and insensitive. It just perpetuates the cycle of not allowing minorities into the movie industry.
I agree with most of your post, but this is set in 2026, or later. There’s no reason to think that in that future, synthetic bodies wouldn’t have an ambiguous appearance in regard to their ethnicity. Much like the show itself, making a body particularly Japanese would limit its marketing appeal.
Again, Johansson is a terrible choice for a multitude of reasons. Her appearance is part of it, but it goes far beyond her skin, hair and eye coloring. You could pick lots of other acceptable candidates for the role that also weren’t Japanese who would be a convincing Makoto, but they’d have to convince you they’d have the resolve to take on a tank or mobile armor. I’ve never seen the actress in question perform in a manner that makes me believe that she’d be a convincing Major.
Really, screw the whole idea of a live action GITS movie. That’s not a good medium for communicating this story, as the realities of the production bring up too many irrelevant problems that have nothing to do with the story. Give me another animated feature, where you can express yourself without these idiotic controversies.
As an aside, in the upcoming DOCTOR STRANGE movie, Doc’s mentor – who, in the comics, is an Asian male – will apparently be played by Tilda Swinton. But in that same movie, Baron Mordo – a European nobleman who happens to be white in the comics – is being played by Chiwetel Ejiofor.
So is that film a win or a loss or a break-even proposition for the underrepresented? (Does it depend on whether Swinton or Ejiofor ranks higher in the credits?)
So nerdsplain to those of us who are no more than casual anime viewers how we can tell which light skinned, round eyed, blue haired characters are Japanese and which light skinned, round eyed, blue haired characters are not.