School buses

Factual Questions
41

[QUOTE=TheLoadedDog]
Here’s something to throw a spanner into the works…
[/QUOTE]

Not really, a single anecdote doesn’t mean much. Almost every safety device or procedure causes a few accidents themselves. A seat belt can trap a driver in a burning car, an airbag may go off accidentally and cause injuries, a helmet can get snagged on something, and allowing children to cross in front of school buses can make children less alert and cause them to get into accidents (see above). That doesn’t necessarily mean these safety measures are bad ideas. The question is whether they prevent more injuries/deaths than they cause, and whether the net safety benefit is worth the expense and trouble.

42

[QUOTE=Balthisar]
Trains also blare their horns.
[/QUOTE]
I wish I had more info on this (when things changed, most common locations, etc.), but I don’t. Anyway, at some Canadian crossings, sometimes trains don’t blow their whistles. This is a relatively new policy, done generally at the request of the local municipality, which doesn’t want to hear the noise.

The crossing will have lights and bells and gates, and drivers approaching it see a sign warning “Train does not blow whistle” (something like that anyway). There are as many safety measures at these “whistle-less” crossings as is possible, but they are worrisome because when trains don’t use their whistles, they can be amazingly quiet.

As I said, I wish I had more info on these “whistle-less” crossings, because then we might have some figures on accidents that were caused by malfunctioning safety equipment coupled with a lack of a train’s warning whistle, and could draw a conclusion as to whether or not this idea works well. Anyway, when driving, I tend to approach these crossings slowly, to watch the signals, to look up and down the track, and to be ready to stop. I’d rather take as many precautions as I can, as well as be aware of the safety signals at such crossings, especially if the train itself cannot warn me via its whistle.

43

If it is a good idea for school buses, then why don’t we all stop and open our windows at RR crossings?

44

[QUOTE=jtgain]
If it is a good idea for school buses, then why don’t we all stop and open our windows at RR crossings?
[/QUOTE]

I don’t know. Why don’t you ask one of my 6th grade classmates single mother? You can’t because she is dead even though it was a crossing less than 1/4 mile from her house and she drove across it every day. Why don’t you ask one of my best teenage friends? He could probably ramble off some type of answer but it won’t make much sense because he was in a coma for three months after getting nailed by a train and is permanently brain damaged.

Closely checking for trains isn’t a bad idea for anyone especially at unguarded rural crossing but it is especially important when you are responsible for a whole bus-load of children rather than just yourself.

45

[QUOTE=Shagnasty]
I don’t know. Why don’t you ask one of my 6th grade classmates single mother? You can’t because she is dead even though it was a crossing less than 1/4 mile from her house and she drove across it every day. Why don’t you ask one of my best teenage friends? He could probably ramble off some type of answer but it won’t make much sense because he was in a coma for three months after getting nailed by a train and is permanently brain damaged.

Closely checking for trains isn’t a bad idea for anyone especially at unguarded rural crossing but it is especially important when you are responsible for a whole bus-load of children rather than just yourself.
[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry for your losses, but I can’t tell if you are saying that we should all stop, or only school busses.

I consider my family important, and your and your dead acquaintences are important. So are school children.

So, in your opinion, should everyone stop and open their windows at RR crossings, or only school buses?

46

[QUOTE=jtgain]
I’m sorry for your losses, but I can’t tell if you are saying that we should all stop, or only school busses.

I consider my family important, and your and your dead acquaintences are important. So are school children.

So, in your opinion, should everyone stop and open their windows at RR crossings, or only school buses?
[/QUOTE]

I personally don’t come to a complete stop at railroad crossings because I usually drive by myself and almost all of the crossings around here are guarded by arms and signals. It seems like a reasonable risk to take considering the alternative of having traffic backed up for miles because every driver decides to make their own assessment.

However, rural crossings are another matter. There are plenty of unguarded ones and those were the type the people I described got nailed in. They are a real risk especially for people that become overly familiar with them and put their guard down.

School buses stop traffic in both directions all the time because that is the way that they operate. There is little extra burden for them to be extra careful at railroad crossings and a huge downside if a school bus gets nailed by a train. In an alternative universe, a single driver getting hit by a train would be sad but a bus full of elementary school kids getting killed by one is a tragedy. The fall-out would mean that all buses have to stop and listen at railroad crossings which is where we are now.

47

I have a theory on another reason why the driver opens the doors at the railroad tracks and since nobody else has posted it including Rico the bus driver, here goes:

I’ve noticed that in Louisiana, the buses turn on their yellow flashers and then the red flashers as they approach the tracks, probably just to give extra warning to the people behind them that they’re going to stop.

Now I haven’t been on a schoolbus in about 17 years, but I remember playing with the controls on a parked bus when I was a teenager and there was a button that activated the yellow flashers. When you opened the door, the red flashers kicked in and then they shut off when you closed the door (the stop signs were activated by a separate switch).

I don’t know if the flashers before the train track is universal but that might be one reason why they do this.

BTW, most of the school buses here aren’t air-conditioned and the windows are always open when the bus is in operation except for the two or three weeks of Arctic 40 degree weather we get in some Januaries.

48

[QUOTE=jtgain]
So, in your opinion, should everyone stop and open their windows at RR crossings, or only school buses?
[/QUOTE]

They probably should, IMO. As scr4 noted above, that is in fact the law here (just stopping, opening windows isn’t required).

Rather than making a new law, it would probably be simpler to place stop signs or flashing stop lights at grade crossings.

49

Here’s the Province of Ontario on stopping at railway crossings:

As Spoons said. I’ve been on a Greyhound intercity bus that stopped at the two railway spur-line crossings along Highway 7 on either side of Havelock, Ontario. And I was on a city bus today that had to stop at three crossings (route 110, Long Branch to Islington).

Re: approaching speed. There’s a level crossing across the Lakeshore Line just west of Port Credit station. This has to be one of the most dangerous crossings around. It’s busy; there are commuter trains every twenty minutes at rush hour, plus intercity trains and freight trains. I’ve been waiting on the platform at that station when express trains have belted by at over 120 km/h. And you can’t tell how fast they are going until they’re right next to you, and then it’s ding ding ding Bam! wham wham wham wham wham wham wham rattle rattle rattle into the distance…

50

Its a DMV and/or (in my location) a California Highway Patrol rule.

Transit Buses have to do this too. As a Bus trainee I have to stop at all non-exempt crossings. Some stops are silly, but since we’re in training, they want us to get into the habit of stopping at rail crossings.

So that 80 ft stretch of track remaining across a road that wasn’t paved over/ripped out? Yep, we have to stop.

That short rail spur the lightrail occasionally uses to store trains at the transit center? Yeah, we have to stop there.

The fines are very steep- The California Highway Patrol, and in turn, the Valley Transit Authority don’t mess around when it comes to railroad stop violations. Last I heard, the fine was $2500+$50 per passengers. The VTA will suspend and/or fire violators.

51

[QUOTE=jasonh300]
I’ve noticed that in Louisiana, the buses turn on their yellow flashers and then the red flashers as they approach the tracks, probably just to give extra warning to the people behind them that they’re going to stop.
[/QUOTE]

It’s legal (here in Michigan, at least) to pass a school bus with yellow flashers, but illegal to pass a school bus with the red flashers. So perhaps the red flashers are just an indication that you mustn’t pass the buss due to your impatience of the buss stopping at the tracks.

I have to imagine that school busses have the option to not start the red flashers merely because the door is open, as there are jurisdictions (here in Michigan, at least) where the use of red flashers is prohibited.

Also, my fellow Michiganders, please bear in mind that you don’t stop for yellow flashers. You just look stupid, and piss off everyone behind you.

52

[QUOTE=Shagnasty]
100% of the people that get by trains, assuming that they live, found it obvious that there was no train coming.

[/QUOTE]

this isnt even close to correct, sadly. According to the Folks at Operation life saver 50% of train car collisions happen at crossings with lights bells and guards that come down, and 40% happen in broad daylight. so very very close to 50% of the survivors if they are honest would tell you they were just impatient morons who couldnt wait 30 seconds for an amtrak to zoom past.
http://www.oli.org/ yeah I am a presenter, or was until my boss went and got all stupid about the class.

53

As a school bus driver, I can chime in on a few things.

One unresolved issue concerns the red stop-lights and signs. On the buses that I have driven, the lights are operated by two switches. The master switch arms the system and is either set on or off. The “Start” switch sets the whole thing in motion. So, on a route, the driver sets the master switch to on when leaving the school. At 250 feet (IIRC) before the stop, he/she hits the start button. This sets the amber lights flashing. When the door is opened, the red lights flash and the stop sign and crossing arm are deployed. When the door is closed, the arms and sign retract and the lights turn off. The system is reset.

However, if the master switch is on, the red lights will turn on and the sign and arm deploy even if the start switch was never pressed. This is true even if the ignition is turned off (on some buses). So, when the driver arrives at an RR crossing and opens the door, the lights et al may activate, even when they are not actually required. IMO, this is poor technique on the part of the driver. The red lights, etc. are a traffic control device. They require other drivers to do something specific (stop). They are not required to do this, however, at railroad crossings. I make sure that my master switch is off when arriving at railroad crossings.

As to opening the door, I don’t always do it. State law and my district do not require it. I think that opening the door helps drivers pay attention to the crossing. It’s just a physical reminder that they need to look and listen down the tracks. Sometimes the windows fog up when it is cold outside, so opening the door can help the driver see. I have even done that when arriving at regular street intersections.

Buses must stop at non-exempt railroad crossings. If the crossing is marked with a sign saying “Exempt”, they may proceed without stopping. This is what happens with those oddball crossings where the track has been abandoned or if the crossing is a spur into a mill or something.

Why stop at RR crossings? IMHO, it is because buses are exposed to the oncoming train for a longer period of time than private passenger cars. That, coupled with the larger number of lives at stake, more than justifies the stopping requirement. Yes, the stopping then causes the bus to move more slowly across the track. However, I will not proceed across a track if there is a train anywhere in sight. So, even though I’ve increased the danger time, I have virtually eliminated the chance of being hit. In a bus with manual transmission, it is also illegal to change gears while crossing. Therefore, the bus is always in first gear. If the bus becomes disabled while on the track, it is evacuated immediately, regardless of whether a train is coming or if the bus might be revived.

54

[QUOTE=Drum God]
In a bus with manual transmission, it is also illegal to change gears while crossing.
[/QUOTE]

I remember seeing this in a regular driving manual. I probably couldn’t find a cite for that but I guess they don’t want the car to stall due to misuse of the clutch. Once you’re rolling in first gear, you’re probably going to stay rolling.

Oops…I actually found a cite for Louisiana: PDF Warning

55

[QUOTE=TheLoadedDog]
Sure? Most places I know, road traffic lights are activated by induction coils. You can’t freak out traffic lights with a set of jumper cables…
[/QUOTE]

What do you mean? What have traffic lights got to do with it?

56

[QUOTE=jtgain]
I’m sorry for your losses, but I can’t tell if you are saying that we should all stop, or only school busses.

I consider my family important, and your and your dead acquaintences are important. So are school children.

So, in your opinion, should everyone stop and open their windows at RR crossings, or only school buses?
[/QUOTE]

You should always stop at unguarded railroad crossings. As a general rule, I don’t always stop, but I do slow WAY down, and make certain that I can see what is coming up and down the track before proceeding. Here in NW Ohio, there are a lot of such crossings, including several around one of the high schools where I used to substitute. There is a fairly busy one locally that only gets irregular traffic servicing two Johns Manville plants; you see idiots scream across it at 55 mph all the time without caring, but I’ve actually been forced to stop at it, at night (!), for the passage of a short train of tanker cars. They installed gates just recently, when a mall went in nearby.

Michigan, interestingly, usually signs an unguarded crossing with Stop signs (at least, that’s the practice in Southern Michigan). So there, you ARE required by law to stop, even as a car. Gotta love when good driving habits get reinforced by traffic laws. :slight_smile:

57

I dunno what this world is coming to. Doesn’t the OP recall the golden rule when crossing tracks? Stop, look, and listen*?

*I’d add to this make sure you have room ahead of you to clear the tracks. In heavy traffic, so many people strattle the tracks…like the train will simply swerve to go behind them?

Think safety first. You might not get a second chance. Arrive alive…and help those kids stay alive, too! Do you want to be the one to have to apologize to a grieving parent because you were impatient?

58

[QUOTE=Balthisar]
I…there are jurisdictions (here in Michigan, at least) where the use of red flashers is prohibited.
[/QUOTE]

  1. :eek:
  2. What is the logic there? Are those flashing lights going to wake the dead? Or, save one from joining them? :wink:
59

[QUOTE=GorillaMan]
What do you mean? What have traffic lights got to do with it?
[/QUOTE]

Yes, apologies. I misread your post.

60

No problem, I do that often enough to other people :slight_smile: