The funny thing about it is that a lot of kids are going to do what they want anyway. For example, at the private school I attended, the uniform for boys was: white dress shirt, navy blue dress pants, navy blue tie, blue socks, black shoes. I skirted the rules in several ways: instead of dress pants I wore Dickies work pants, which nobody, not even the hawkeyed nuns, noticed. Instead of dress shoes I wore low top work boots covered with 9 coats of black shoe polish, which also went unnoticed. And I walked around with a feeling of smug satisfaction at my rebelliousness, which now seems quaint and just a little bit ridiculous.
Oh, BK, you have obviously never tried to dress my boys in the morning. Picture half an hour of yelling at them to get dressed. Then picture them coming up in clothes that completely clash, and usually aren’t even from the same season. Like a sweatshirt with shorts, and their soccer socks. With rainboots. During winter. This involves another trip downstairs to pick out clothes for them. Which involves another half hour of yelling before they’ll actually change. Then they’ll deviate from what I picked out anyway. Which involves me going back to see where they hid the clothes I picked out for them…
With the uniforms, they don’t argue with me. They just put them on, and we go. Ok, it still involves a half hour of yelling to get them dressed, but at least they don’t have something goofy on when they finally get upstairs.
Minus the planner and ID card, this pretty closely describes what I wear to work daily. Well, ok I also wear boots instead of blue, black or white shoes, but that’s only because shoes don’t last long in the field.
In other words, it doesn’t kill adults to look professional when they’re at their jobs, why should it kill students to look the part when they’re at school? We can both dress how we like when we get home.
My biggest objection to school uniforms is that most “school uniforms” for girls require them to wear skirts. Short skirts. Skirts limit your activity and movement. Short skirts are also somewhat provocative, as some comments above show. Requiring girls to wear skirts puts them at a disadvantage.
Now, I have nothing against skirts. I wear them all the time, now, and I commonly wore them in high school, but it was my choice. And I wear/wore long skirts anyway, which are more modest and less restirictive.
In other words, girls should not be required to wear skirts.
I agree that the idea of uniforms has some merit. But most uniforms that I have seen are ugly, impractical, unflattering, and seem like they would be uncomfortable. Knowing that there are better uniforms out there (like the ones that Feynn and lolagranola’s kids wear) make me more amenable to the whole idea. I guess you can count me as undecided/no opinion.
So the trouble isn’t finding something to wear, it’s finding something to wear that you approve of? I’m not trying to be flip. I mean, I can understand not letting them wear shorts in sub-zero temperatures, or something like that. But if they’re wearing clashing colors? I can’t help but think the world will go on.
Certainly, you can dress your kids as you see fit. If you want to have them dress in uniforms, more power to you. But why should all students have to dress in uniforms if they don’t want to? (At least, I’m under the impression that the OP referred to mandatory school uniforms.)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Jophiel *
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Because you’re not required to go to work, you choose to. Plus, you get paid for it.
Uniforms. One form. Not at all for me. I would have dropped out and headed for college. I couldn’t even stay uniform for chior concerts (I would wear my finger gauntlet under the robes.) or graduation. (I did all sorts of stuff to my robe for graduation.)
Time? It takes me 25 min from bed to door including shower. I dress comfortably in whatever I feel like. I did really well in high school thank you, focused on learning etc, etc and I didn’t even wear shoes half the time. Kids who want to learn cannot be stopped. Kids who refuse to learn cannot be forced. The biggest factor in the undecideds is not clothes, or signs, or punishments but parental support and good teachers.
Iolagranola, I have to chime in with BK here. You seem to be saying that your kids aren’t wearing what you want them to. So what? Either set their clothes out for them, tie their shoes, and fix whatever else they mess up, or let them learn. So the soccer socks get worn to school with rain boots, at least they are wearing socks and they are being independant people.
My parents were actually pretty good about this one. We kids dress ourselves. We may not match, but we choose what we want to wear and the image we want to present. Its our image, not theirs.
Jophiel, school is the equivalent of a kid job, I agree. That children should be forced to ‘look the part’ is up for interpretation. Frankly, non uniformed kids do look the part. They look like kids rather than drone dolls dressed out of a catologue. In my jeans, sandals, and tank tops I think I look very much like a college student. That jobs should have stick up the butt dress codes is another thing I have probelms with. If you can do the work well, why should it matter what you are wearing? (Other than for safety reasons)
On the other side of it, my littlest sister dressed herself in uniforms for years. (my parents are not ones to limit what we wear. The prefer clothes.) She demanded the plaid skirts and knee high socks. She’s very into theatre and dresses for activities. That was her school costume for playing the part of student. (On her spare time she wore black tight pants and oversized black shirts with bare feet. It was her actress costume.)
I’m sorry, how old were you? Because last I checked, you can drop out of school around age 16 or so. Which means that you’re choosing to go. As for getting paid for it, I think you fail to grasp the connection between education, employment and salary. Going to school is part of your job training, bucko. Don’t believe me? Drop out and see how much money you’re making when you’re thirty.
While I agree that the biggest factors in a successful education can be traced to parents and teachers, it seems simplistic to ignore other factors as well.
Medea, I agree with you on most of this and I wasn’t actually trying to say that students should be required to wear identical uniforms. However, I’m a little dismayed if kids think that wearing a uniform is going to be the worst thing to happen to them or even bad enough to moan and bitch about it as if their liberties were being taken away. I don’t really speak of college, since in theory you chose your college and knew what you were getting into before you sent in your tutition check and so uniforms or no shouldn’t be any suprise to you.
On the other hand, I don’t see how wearing torn clothing, revealing clothing, or shirts with questionable remarks or images on them makes for a better student than a bunch of drone dolls dressed out of a catologue. For that matter, I don’t see how wearing expensive and fashionable clothing makes for a better student. However, I do see how some form of dress code, be it fairly casual or to the point of uniforms, is a realistic expectation for a school to have. School (especially high school) is supposed to be preparing students for life outside of school, be it college or a career. To this end, it’s not killing students to have to actually dress like members of functioning society for six or eight hours while they get their state sponsored or parent-paid-for education.
Tell me that schools are banning books, or prohibiting free conversation or are forcing prayer or many other things and I’ll feel upset or even outraged about it. Tell me that students are upset that they’re being abused by having to dress in decent clothing that resembles the decent clothing of their peers and how unjust it is and I’ll just roll my eyes and think that they should be saving their energies for a real fight.
Yes. We don’t have enough fetishes in this country. This will add one, maybe even two.
That being said, for a very breif time, (well, one year. Seems brief in retrospect) I went to a private school that required uniforms. It didn’t seem like that big a deal, and certainly didn’t transform us all into robots, or anything of the kind. Didn’t even teach me how to tie a tie. For some people, it might have helped devide the day into “school” and “non-school” time, but only for some.
However, arguments suggesting that this will reduce gang activity or the like seems pretty unlikly. It’s not going to affect cliqishness and “social darwinism” that makes jr. high/HS so hellish for some people. It’s a smokescreen solution that dosn’t do anything about the problem except letting people think they’re solving it.
There might be small benifits, (a bit more “professional,” cheaper for some parents) and small costs to go with them. Not, on the whole I think, a question worthy of all the time spent debating it across the country.
Unless we (well, they) get those jackets with the military wrap around collar. Those are cool. If that’s the case, I’m all for it.
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“Check your contract! It says ‘Guest Villian!’”
My high school didn’t require uniforms, but had a very strict dress code. No above-the-knee shorts (are there any other kind??) or skirts, no baggy pants or tight pants, no tank tops or torn/ripped clothing. A uniform would actually haave been better than trying to follow their insane guidelines. Our gym uniforms, btw, were basically hot pants (very short, tight shorts, that barely covered your ass) and deep v-necked t shirts. Hmm. This was '88-92, btw.
The parochial schools here all use uniforms, but my main beef with them is almost all the required jumpers, pants and skirts are 100% polyester for the lower grades. Ugh. The kids change to gym uniforms for gym class, I believe. Girls are not required per se to only wear the skirt or jumper, but are strongly encouraged to. Just recently they were allowed to wear leggings (in black, white or navy only) under the skirts in the winter. Previously that wasn’t allowed.
–tygre
Weeeellll…
Revealing, sloppy, dirty clothes-no way.
But what is wrong with jeans, a sweater and sneakers?
When I FELT good about what I was wearing, I was happy and able to concentrate. If I had to wear something ugly and unflattering, I felt self conscious.
So what would you tell the kids who feel “good” about wearing revealing,sloppy, dirty clothes…?
It sounds like you might not have a problem with a dress code per se, just a uniform code…
Of course a dress “code” implies enforcement of said code, because as others have pointed out–wherever you draw the line, there will be several kids (and perhaps parents?) willing to cross that line.
I think a uniform code of proscribed wear is much easier to communicate and enforce than a list of “don’t wear”, that by it’s nature changes every year.
If the problem is “ugly” and uncomfortable uniforms, I can understand that problem…and perhaps ths solution (not there will ever be a solution that pleases all kids) will be to involve some students in the uniform selection process. Again, at the Catholic school I taught at, there were several options…none of which seemed to be that uncomfortable. For the boys, either a white or light blue buttoned shirt (any brand, sans logo) and dark blue or black pants. For the girls…same top with either dark blue or black pants or skirt. The shirts could be short or long sleeved…in the winter time a plain colored sweater was OK (optional)…I think that there are enough options in a set up like that to meet the comfort needs of just about any kid…I’m sure it probably does not meet the “style” needs of all kids, but thats not an important point in the school setting…
I am the product of 12 years of uniforms thanks to Catholic Schooling.
On one hand, I loved the fact that every morning I knew I would be wearing the white shirt and the plaid pants or skirt, knee socks and tennis shoes. ( High school we were allowed to wear navy pants or skirts)
[raving sidebar]
To be a rebel, and because it wasn’t stated in our Dress Code Policy, in high school I wore cowboy boots with my skirt. It didn’t match, and I really didn’t care. That was my pathetic rebellious youth. Shoes. Yeah. I want thatin my obit. [/sidebar]
When wearing little alligators on your shirt or sweater became the rage (because it fit in with our dress code of solid color tops of red,white or blue, cause a frenzy it did with the pack of papists that we were) I was green with envy at the kids whose parents would pay $35 for an Izod sweater. My mother showed me the difference between the alligator sweater and the sweater without the alligator
( purchased from Sears, no doubt) was about $15.
It taught me early on that high priced designer clothing is ridiculous. ( Designer clothing purchased from resale shops, Salvation Army and the like, however, are perfectly a-ok by and for me.)
My mother’s words always stuck with me, " Those kids who go to public school could afford to go to a Catholic school, but cannot because they have to wear expensive clothes and they are not taught the value of a dollar of scrimping and saving…blah blah blah" I would enter a coma about at that point of the fillibuster.
Naturally, this made me want to go to a public school even more. Except, I would have never made it out of the house in the morning because I would have had to thought about what I was going to wear in to school.
OTOH, I was envious as hell of all my public school heathen friends who could wear jeans to school. Splinters!
I am for uniforms.
Sister Mary Attila The Nun made me say that:::owI am sitting up straight, Sister…jesus Christ! :::ow!
I would also like to add, that to this very day, I cannot wear the color combinations of red, white and blue or blue and white because of my school experience. I also cannot eat twinkies like I use to either, but that is blamed on the work stoppage of my metabolism.
That’s all.
I can’t say enough vitriolic, abjuratious, or despicatory things about school uniforms. I hate them, and I hate the idea of dressing little kids in business suits because some sadistic drill-sergeant of a headmaster likes to see rows and rows of identical little boys and girls. It’s perfectly disgusting. That’s not the way to encourage individuality; it’s a way to encourage mindless conformism and unthinking school spirit. Trust me, I know whereof I speak.
To say nothing of the aesthetic problems. Trust me, my quality of life was NOT enhanced by having no fashion sense when I graduated. I’m a gay man and a Libra, and still I needed swift and brutal style reeducation once I graduated, so cruelly was my clothing compass off true.
I still refuse to wear a tie to anything less serious than a job interview or funeral. So there.
Incidentally, I’d like to give my polite, private-school-educated “bullshit!” to the notion that uniforms promote discipline somehow. My uniform-wearing private school was as much a bastion of teenage homophobia, misogyny, and alcoholism as you’d care to find anywhere. It was not a pleasant place to go to school.
Picture your chem teacher holding a beaker of dilute hydrochloric acid up to you and getting the other 25 boys in your class to chant “Drink It! Drink It!”. No lie. And not prevented by a uniform.
I don’t know if you do, actually. I went to a school with a uniform code and we didn’t have a “Drill sergeant” of a “headmaster” who liked “indentical little boys and girls.”
Actually, our principals (we had two while I was in high school) were pretty nice, easygoing gentlemen.
As far as I am aware, they had no say in the uniform policy.
Mine wasn’t, and I’m a straight Sagittarius, like there’s anything to astrology. Sounds like a personal problem to me… but then, you ARE a politician. 
Gee, I suppose I must have hallucinated the six years I spent as an inmate of private schools.
And what have you done for the public good recently?