Science=Opium v 2.0?

And in my not-so-humble opinion, the main reason for this is because of what I hereby call “The Shift of Slavery.”

Humans like to have others do their work for them. In ancient times, this was accomplished by enslaving other humans. Nowadays, this is accomplished by “enslaving” machines that were built with the express purpose of being our slaves. We can now satisfy most people’s desire to be waited on hand-and-foot without having to use other people’s hands and feet to do it.

In other words, we haven’t eliminated slavery, we’ve just shifted it to our toys.

MEBuckner, many of “us” have tried to present an attack on some of the “tenets” of science. They are, of course, not well-liked, but mostly because people don’t often delve into the philosophy of science, which in many formualtions is founded on some kind of epistemological nihilism (nothing is ever proved). This distinction, I believe, is carried down from time immemorial (actually, around the time of the rise of British Empiricism) which declares knowledge to be able to be discretely separated. This separation involves matters of indisputable truth (but guess who also gets to declare them indisputable?) like mathematics and predicate logic and matters of indeterminate truth like empirical investigations. Of course, lucky for those that espouse this view, the distinction is just supposed to be obvious, so there is no need to actually explain how we come to know things that are supposed to be so different.

Of course, “religion”, like almost all words, is best understood through use and not by ostensive or explicit definition. Consider the word “game”, for instance. What links dollhouses with chess with tennis? Well, nothing. A universal definition of “game” is impossible. Some games share some qualities with other games, and these others with still others, but meaning isn’t perfectly transitive: it is contextua; what board games share with card games isn’t what card games share with sports, and so onl. Yet to say that science seems like a religion is now to say (apparently) something quite outside of English and to make a formal equality (but guess who insists that we are making equalities and won’t hear otherwise?).

Anyway, I’ve been in two threads on the “science” topic. There are some fundamental, underlying conceptions of reality that I do not share with others in this respect, and communication of the point has become impossible.

erislover’s well-intentioned (but, to me, incomprehensible) attempt at establishing a new epistemology of science aside, I think Logical Phallacy’s proposition falls down on a basic misunderstanding about how science works in comparison to religion.

To wit: Religious belief asserts a priori that it is correct. One begins with God, or the deity/deities of your choice, and constructs a social and moral system from that starting point. If information comes to light that contradicts the faith, then either the information is suppressed or disregarded (or labeled as the misleading work of an anti-deity), or the faith eventually crumbles and dies.

Science, by contrast, asserts a couple of basic axioms – the universe can be perceived rationally; the accumulation of information is the only reasonable means of testing hypotheses; the behavior of the universe is consistent, such that the repeated testing of hypotheses can be predicted to yield consistent results; and so on. And then, based on these, you basically have at it. Anything is fair game; any bit of received knowledge is open to disproof, using these methods. Given enough evidence, even the fundamental underpinnings of a body of thought can be erased and redrawn, as happened with Einstein and relativity, or Wegener and tectonic drift, or any number of other examples.

That’s the basic difference: Religion assumes infallibility; science makes no such assumption.

But what about the axioms, you demand? Well, if you reject the basic scientific axioms, then you posit a universe that behaves irrationally and inconsistently, and whose physical interactions cannot be predicted with any confidence. Trouble is, all the available evidence contradicts this view. As Mort Furd points out, the very computer you used to write your thesis and are now using to read my words is a counterexample to this worldview. The computer is an amazing technological achievement, building on discovery after discovery in an easily traced history. If science didn’t work, then the odds of having randomly invented a functional computer out of whole cloth, and more importantly mass-producing computers that we can all use in more or less the same manner, are quite long indeed.

Certainly, there’s room for philosophical debate in terms of the meta-scientific-methodological validation of science itself by means of repetition and reinforcement. Perhaps that’s even what erislover is driving at, some sort of Gödelian proposition that any proof of science that uses a scientific approach is by definition fatally flawed, and that therefore the scientific method remains ipso facto unproven in some Platonic sense. Perhaps there’s even some merit to that argument.

To me, though, it seems, on a purely commonsense level, that the record of scientific discovery stands as its own best advocate. Thousands and thousands of people every day use the methods of science to say, “Based on what we know, this and this ought to result in that. <later> And whaddaya know, it does.” This has given us everything from compact discs to contact lenses, from superconductors to the Heimlich maneuver.

And yes, it’s absolutely true that the Average Joe is becoming ever more disconnected from the methods by which your “handy-dandy gadgets” are created, and yes, it’s further true that scientific exploration has given us just as many dangerous temptations (e.g. weaponized anthrax) as it has purely positive creations (e.g. penicillin). Neither of these criticisms, however, has anything whatever to do with the fundamental validity of the scientific method as a means of examining and understanding our universe.

Oscar Wilde agreed with you, just so you know. From his essay "The Soul of Man Under Socialism:

couple quick additions…

ErisLover: I think you know EXACTLY where I’m coming from and I greatly appreciate your well-constructed elucidation.

I think the point about society depending on slavery is very smart. No machine (I don’t care how good the marketers claim the ‘AI’ is) will EVER be as effective a tool as the human being, and as such people will always look for ways to use us to their advantage.

On science: One random comparison that might be helpful for some of you to understand my feelings is to look at Steven Wolfram and his book ‘A New Kind of Science’.

Wolfram is a very well respected researcher who created the first and to the best of my knowledge, only true Mathmatical Programaming language, Mathmatica. This groundbreaking software made him a millionaire.

For the last 10 or so years since creating Mathmatica, Wolfram has busied himself on a new project, namely, the creation of a new theory to explain the universe. The beauty of his theory lies in its utter simplicity. He holds the belief that our universe is generated (that the laws of our world, from “gravity” to sperm selection) on an EXTREMELY SIMPLE formula, as he put it, something that would take perhaps 3 lines of code to express in his program. The entire ruleset for the universe, on which everything that happens is based on 3 lines of code!

So while he does not believe science as we know it is useless, he simply believes that it is an ridiculously poor means of expressing whats going on here. So the comparison I was looking to make was, wether or not one accepts his unified theory, it serves as a good example of how sysyems can be analyzed in very different ways, and so even if science can describe the universe with some practical applications, there are far far far better ways to think about things.

that will be all.

far far better ways of expressing things, that is unless the goal of the system (ie religion) is to keep the common man down.

You mean, like DC-10s with broken hydraulic fluid lines?

Nah, I think he means Cold War space stations.

All Wolfram suggests is that algorithms supercede equations.

Nothing particularly new or society-shaking there.

Ah, am I right in saying that in essence, Wolfram suggests things like This simple algorithm plots out a pattern that looks like a duck, therefore the shape of ducks is governed by a simple algorithm?

Perhaps you’d like to treat us to a demonstration of these far far better ways to think about/express things?

At no point did I try to claim science or technology to be inherently evil. Marx said that religion was the opium of the people, which was not to imply that it was, in itself wrong or evil or bad, rather that many that participate in it do so with out outside consideration for what was going on, for example the rich justifying themselves and their actions via the Bible, and the poor and weak accepting their abuse, again due to the Bible. They were numb to their own plight and couldn’t escape until they escaped from the grasp of their own comfort.

Mangetout, perhaps we are trapped? These things have a tendency to profliferate at such a rate that they take over society, and leave us with no alternate…atleast nothing obvious or commonly discussed.

hmmmm.

I’m sorry, but it’s starting to bug me. Marx called religion “the opiate of the masses,” not opium. It’s an important distinction.

No, but you did claim that they were the same, and you are putting negative connotations on science. Words such as “numb” and “plight”, and phrases such as “couldn’t escape”, are testament to this.

So…if I were to ask you to transport a ton of say…lima beans across the country, would you recommend using 50 humans, a dozen humans with wheelbarrels, 1 human driving a horse drawn wagon or 1 human driving a pickup truck? AI will probably never fully replace humans but just as mechanization has freed mankind to persuit more intellectual interests, AI will furthur free man from some of the more mundane and tedious intellectual tasks.

Let me just add that according to science, the DC-10 with the busted hydraulic line will ALWAYS fall from the sky. Science and mathmatics may not be perfect or always comprehensible to everyone (ie show me i (square root of -1) bananas but at least it is a lot more consistent and predictable than religeon or philosophy.

So he basically believes that there is a Unified Theory that can explain the entire universe. So does every physicist out there. That does not invalidate science in any way. For awhile, Newtonian physics was the best model for how the universe worked. Then someone realized that it doesn’t account for objects traveling at super high (near light) speeds and created the Theory of Relativity. Newtonian physics wasn’t invalidated. It’s still probably the easiest way to model motion mechanics at normal everyday speeds. A scientist simply looked at the universe in a new way and created a new model that accounted for the new observations.

Science does this all the time. It is not generally have a dogmatic view of the universe. The only caveat is that if you develop a new theory or model, you still need to figure out where the old one failed and where it continues to hold true.

I think it is also true to say that people on the fringes (like Wolfram) have a tendency to compare themselves to people like Galileo and Pasteur, who were ridiculed in their time but proven correct by history.

Of course this proves nothing because there were also any number of genuine nutcases spouting utter drivel for which they were ridiculed and richly deserved it (history just doesn’t always remember them so clearly).

Cervaise, on the contrary, I think science proves things all the time, and any conception of it which doesn’t acknowledge this is, IMO, fatally flawed and creates an intellectual vacuum. But for science to prove things, we also need to get rid of that sticky notion of indisputable truth. Once that disappears, the reasons for saying science never proves anything go with it.

You can’t throw the baby out with the bathwater if the tub was empty the whole time to begin with.

So why do I feel science is a religion? Because scientists have their notion of indisputable truth (math, syllogistic reasoning, general deductive processes). It is their godhead. And they worship their own imperfection with respect to it by declaring nothing they do ever proved.

Shit. Now I’ve been in three threads on this topic lately… :stuck_out_tongue:

erislover,

Could you give a few examples of these indisputable truths that scientist worship? Because without them your comments just sounds like rhetorical BS to me.

Besides which, I didn’t say scientists worshipped these things, but rather their own imperfection. But I say this against a conception of science where science never proves anything.

Oooh, great sig line. Did you take lessons from WallyM7?