Scott Walker recall takes an unexpected turn.

[FE3O4ENAIL]

The guardian.co.uk reports USA at 14th in testing 0f students and Japan 5th.
Reason.com shows USA spending 90K per student, while Japan spends 70K. Only the Swiss spend more than we do.

Walker cuts spending on education to a level that other countries have no problem getting results that excede ours.Why is he a bad guy for asking US teachers to do what is done by much of the world?
Why can’t teachers learn to do more with less like manufacturing has done?

[BrainGlutton]

@FE3O4ENAIL

Why can’t teachers learn to do more with less like manufacturing has done?

Well, that would be a whole 'nother thread, and belong in GD.

[Fear_Itself]

@FE3O4ENAIL

Why is he a bad guy for asking US teachers to do what is done by much of the world?

Because much of the world has socialized medicine, and teachers don’t have to beg their employer for health benefits.

[FE3O4ENAIL]

@Fear_Itself

Because much of the world has socialized medicine, and teachers don’t have to beg their employer for health benefits.

Why are there more teachers than teaching job? You would think that market forces would correct that if teaching jobs were undercompensated.

[BrainGlutton]

@FE3O4ENAIL

Why are there more teachers than teaching job? You would think that market forces would correct that if teaching jobs were undercompensated.

How?

[Fear_Itself]

@FE3O4ENAIL

Why are there more teachers than teaching job? You would think that market forces would correct that if teaching jobs were undercompensated.

You would be wrong to think that, if the fact remains that the number of teachers outnumber the available teaching jobs. Clearly, the market does not function the way you think it does. Not that it matters, because that factoid is irrelevant.

You can’t compare education spending in the US to education spending in Switzerland, because much of every US education dollar is spent on healthcare benefits for teachers and staff. In Switzerland, and every other first world country, health care benefits do not come out of education dollars.

That is why we spend more on education than any other country.

[mkecane]

@elucidator

I’m sure Minnesotans could be persuaded to accept more Wisconsin workers for some minor concessions. Eradication of Green Bay would be a good first step.

I like it!

[FE3O4ENAIL]

@BrainGlutton

How?

If the compensation is too low, people will not consider the vocation.

[Fear_Itself]

@FE3O4ENAIL

If the compensation is too low, people will not consider the vocation.

Yes, let’s have our kids try to learn from the only teachers who will still work for slashed wages. Does that sound like a way to achieve higher educational standards?

[FE3O4ENAIL]

@Fear_Itself

Yes, let’s have our kids try to learn from the only teachers who will still work for slashed wages. Does that sound like a way to achieve higher educational standards?

Well, in manufacturing, we changed how we did things.
The pay is good for the people left after the revolution,but the expectations are way differant than how they were.
That is what I am expecting from teachers, abandon the past, think hard about what will produce results, then do it.

[elucidator]

Gosh, why didn’t we think of that before! Its simply an openly negotiated contract between private citizens! Its not like there’s any other pressure! And all those labor disturbances, they were so very, very wrong, accusing the capitalist employers of heartless exploitation! They were simply obedient to the will of the Free Market, blessings and peace be upon it! Its not like the workers were at the mercy of a soulless and arbitrary machinery utterly unconcerned for their well-being.

Except for being exactly like that, it wasn’t like that at all!

[BrainGlutton]

@FE3O4ENAIL

If the compensation is too low, people will not consider the vocation.

:dubious: That ain’t no “correction.” You’re looking at it from the wrong end. The important question is, why are there fewer well-paying teaching jobs than there should be? I trust you will understand why this has an importance not reflected in market-forces, and fundamentally different from the same question WRT lathe operators or whatever.

[BrainGlutton]

But, now this is really veering into GD territory.

[BrainGlutton]

Getting back to Wisconsin electoral politics – I did not know this – from the SourceWatch page on the voter-suppression organization True the Vote (an outgrowth, BTW, of the Texas Tea Party organization King Street Patriots):

2011-2012 Wisconsin Recall Effort

In 2012, True the Vote joined several other Tea Party groups in “Verify the Recall”, an effort that opposes the 2012 recall of Wisconsin governor Scott Walker. True the Vote provided software which it had previously applied to check signatures in petitions in Texas. [17] In order to electronically check over 1 million petition signatures, which had previously been posted online by Wisconsin’s Government Accountability Board [18] True the Vote recruited thousands of volunteers (mostly out of state) to manually enter signatures into True the Vote’s electronic database. True the Vote claims to have recruited over 13,000 volunteers. [19] True the Vote has stated that this effort is both “nonpartisan” [20] and “not about politics” [21] but their website has run at least two stories suggesting that fraud is “rampant” in the recall effort, and frame the effort as decidedly political. In their own words “we should not believe the claims of union-supporters and anti-Walker operatives who say that they collected more than one million signatures on petitions to recall Governor Scott Walker.” [22].

On February 28th, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker called for the data gathered by the “Verify the Recall” effort to be used as an official challenge of the recall.[23] This data was gathered and compiled entirely by True the Vote. True the Vote’s executive summary claimed that only 534,865 signatures gathered during the recall effort were valid. [24]. There is evidence that True the Vote used a flawed process to discount signatures on the ballot, and that most of the signatures they discounted are, in fact, accurate.[25]

<snip>

17.↑ Carl Engleking: Tea Party Ready to do Battle in Court over Recall Signatures Menomonee Falls: Patch Accessed February 22nd, 2012
18.↑ Clay Barbour: GAB Posts Walker Recall Petitions Online Despite Privacy Concerns Wisconsin State Journal, Accessed February 22nd, 2012
19.↑ True the Vote: Volunteer Accessed February 22nd, 2012
20.↑ True the Vote: Volunteer Accessed February 22nd, 2012
21.↑ True the Vote: Main page Accessed February 22nd, 2012
22.↑ True the Vote: Wisc voter’s name fraudulently signed four times Accessed February 22nd, 2012
23.↑ Walker Challenge Sworn Written Challenge of Governor Scott K. Walker
24.↑ True the Vote: Walker Recall Executive Summary
25.↑ Brenden Fischer and William Dooling: True the Vote or Skew the Vote PRWatch, Accessed March 2nd, 2012

[FE3O4ENAIL]

@elucidator

Gosh, why didn’t we think of that before! Its simply an openly negotiated contract between private citizens! Its not like there’s any other pressure! And all those labor disturbances, they were so very, very wrong, accusing the capitalist employers of heartless exploitation! They were simply obedient to the will of the Free Market, blessings and peace be upon it! Its not like the workers were at the mercy of a soulless and arbitrary machinery utterly unconcerned for their well-being.

Except for being exactly like that, it wasn’t like that at all!

Who is forcing you to work at your current employer?

[BrainGlutton]

@FE3O4ENAIL

Who is forcing you to work at your current employer?

That is a quite incredibly stupid question to ask at any time, and especially four+ years into a recession.

[Reginald_Hobbes]

@BigAppleBucky

There are two possible measures. Both rely on estimates and surveys and neither is a 100% canvass.

There is a third measure, the Quarterly Census of Employment and Wages, which is a (nearly) 100% canvass.

Revisions to jobs statistics nothing new for politics
The governor released fourth-quarter employment data - not due for formal release until June 28 - showing Wisconsin added about 23,321 public and private sector jobs last year. Those figures from the Quarterly Census of Employment and Wages - which is collected from 95% of the state’s private and public sector employers and deemed reliable by most economists - contrast sharply with more than a year’s worth of monthly employment surveys, which suggested that Wisconsin lost 33,900 jobs last year, ranking it last among the 50 states.

It was those monthly survey numbers that Walker’s op ponents have used since last year to criticize him.

The accuracy of the monthly data has been called into question in the past. The monthly estimates, after all, are based on surveys of only 3.5% to 5% of the state’s businesses each month and then extrapolated statewide under a mathematical model that’s routinely prone to error.

…

Inaccurate data

And it brings up an issue that’s been reported, but is often overlooked or willfully ignored: The state employment data that triggers each month’s partisan eruption is prone to stunning degrees of inaccuracy. It’s a fact that even government statisticians don’t talk about unless asked. But the common margin of error would astonish anyone who assumes that Wisconsin’s monthly unemployment reports are a reliable reflection of the Badger State economy.

An example: On any given month, the margin of error for the net change in Wisconsin employment can be off by 9,340 jobs in either direction, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, which compiles the figures for the nation and each of the 50 states.

Using the most recent monthly data - in March, when the data reported an estimated loss of 4,500 jobs in the state - that could either mean a dispiriting loss of 13,840 jobs or a respectable gain of 4,840.

And that range of standard deviations, as the discrepancies are known to the green-eyeshade crowd, is only to achieve a 90% degree of confidence in the numbers. “Ten percent of the time, it’s outside of those bounds,” meaning they are even more wildly erratic, said Kenneth Robertson, chief of the division of Current Employment Statistics at the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

@BigAppleBucky

Why would households be reporting more jobs than employers. The biggest reason would be people working out of state.

Are you getting your info from Kathleen Vinehout?

[Omg_a_Black_Conservative]

So if (when) Walker wins the recall election, what will be the excuse?

[FE3O4ENAIL]

@Omg_a_Black_Conservative

So if (when) Walker wins the recall election, what will be the excuse?

The evil corporations used the free money Walker gave them to trick the stupid people of Wisconsin.

[Fear_Itself]

@Omg_a_Black_Conservative

So if (when) Walker wins the recall election, what will be the excuse?

And when he loses?