SCOTUS just restored us to Yellow Dog contract days!

[Bricker]

@Whack-a-Mole

Arbitration trumps the DOL in almost all cases (there are some very narrow exceptions).

Cite?

This is wrong. Nothing prevents you from complaining to the DOL about any violation of wage laws.

But since you believe otherwise, and in fact have confidently asserted that the reverse is true, please explain how, specifically, you reach this conclusion. What specific law or rule do you imagine prohibits a complaint to DOL?

[k9bfriender]

@Bricker

Cite?

This is wrong. Nothing prevents you from complaining to the DOL about any violation of wage laws.

But since you believe otherwise, and in fact have confidently asserted that the reverse is true, please explain how, specifically, you reach this conclusion. What specific law or rule do you imagine prohibits a complaint to DOL?

Note that you say, “Nothing prevents you from complaining to the DOL”, though you don’t say anything about a response. If they choose not to pursue, which is something that is entirely out of your control, well, nothing prevented you from complaining to them, right?

Just as nothing prevents you from filing a suit against your employer in violation of the arbitration agreement.

[Bricker]

@k9bfriender

Note that you say, “Nothing prevents you from complaining to the DOL”, though you don’t say anything about a response. If they choose not to pursue, which is something that is entirely out of your control, well, nothing prevented you from complaining to them, right?

Just as nothing prevents you from filing a suit against your employer in violation of the arbitration agreement.

Correct.

But this string of inquiry concerned the supposed lack of any remedy or avenue of support outside arbitration. DOL investigates complaints, and has the authority to bring independent civil and criminal enforcement actions against the employer. That is, by all accounts, a “remedy.”

The filing of a suit when its fate is a mandated dismissal is not fairly characterized as a remedy, however.

[Ruken]

IIRC there are about $1B collected from wage and hour violators each year, about half via private lawsuits and half via state and federal departments or attorneys general.

It’s quite possible the government avenues are slow, error-prone, not sufficiently aggressive (e.g. not going after liquidated damages when they could) compared to private avenues. I really don’t know – AFAIK I’ve never had my wages stolen. I did forget to deposit a ~$350 paycheck once and it eventually ended up in some state unclaimed funds account.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@Ruken

I’m curious how this works. The employer and and employee have an agreement with each other, not with WHD. If WHD sees that the FLSA has been violated, they can enforce it with administrative and litigation procedures, or by recommending criminal prosecution. The case in the OP is about individuals and groups litigating on their own.

It was hard to find an answer on this but I found the below which seems to say you can go tot he Department of Labor for things they cover (like the FLSA).

Likewise, agency-initiated actions are not impacted, leaving the Department of Labor and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission free to pursue relief under the statutes they enforce on behalf of employees regardless of whether those employees have entered into class waivers.

SOURCE: Arbitration Agreements | Wage & Hour Litigation Blog

Which makes one wonder why anyone would bother with the courts for these things?

Anyway, good to know there is some reasonable means for employees to pursue disputes with their employer.

Do consumers have an agency that will do the same for them?

[Bricker]

@k9bfriender

If I were to complain about these abuses, and the employer appointed arbiter disagreed with my position, what remedy do I have?

@Whack-a-Mole

None. Not in the civil courts anyway. If a crime was committed you could try and get them busted criminally (arbitration is only for civil matters) but that won’t get your stolen money back.

You might also try talking to a reporter to embarrass them or leave a bad review on Yelp.

@Ruken

This isn’t true, as has already been discussed in this thread.

@Whack-a-Mole

It is true. As has been discussed at some length in this thread.

And then:

@Whack-a-Mole

Anyway, good to know there is some reasonable means for employees to pursue disputes with their employer.

Wow. Not the slightest acknowledgement that your earlier confident assertions were less than fully accurate, huh?

[Ruken]

@Whack-a-Mole

Do consumers have an agency that will do the same for them?

I’ve not looked into it. First place I’d check: Consumer protection - Wikipedia

But of course simply going after businesses for naughty practices is not the same as actually recovering money for individuals.

[k9bfriender]

@Ruken

I’ve not looked into it. First place I’d check: Consumer protection - Wikipedia

But of course simply going after businesses for naughty practices is not the same as actually recovering money for individuals.

Getting your money back is nice, and is useful to the sorts of people who get their money stolen by employers.

However, it is holding them to account, and making sure that they do not continue the practice in the future that is, IMHO, the greater need.

[Bricker]

@Whack-a-Mole

Do consumers have an agency that will do the same for them?

The FTC, for one – not only can they sue on behalf of consumers, but they collect the money and provide refunds to consumers. See https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/cases-proceedings/refunds for examples.

[D_Anconia]

@k9bfriender

Getting your money back is nice, and is useful to the sorts of people who get their money stolen by employers.

So employers are picking pockets and swiping purses?

Your repeated claims about “money stolen by employers” are overwrought exaggerations.

[Ruken]

@D_Anconia

So employers are picking pockets and swiping purses?

Your repeated claims about “money stolen by employers” are overwrought exaggerations.

Wage theft

[Bricker]

@D_Anconia

So employers are picking pockets and swiping purses?

Your repeated claims about “money stolen by employers” are overwrought exaggerations.

Well… to this comment, I object. I grant you it’s not hypertechnical accuracy, but in my view if an employer is legally mandated to pay you overtime, requires that you work overtime on pain of termination, and also threatens to terminate you if you complain about the lack of overtime pay . . . this can be fairly, colloquially, called theft.

No one is alleging that bosses rummage through your wallet when you’re not looking.

[D_Anconia]

@Bricker

. . . this can be fairly, colloquially, called theft.

I disagree that can be “fairly” called theft. Your mileage varies. Shrug.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@D_Anconia

I disagree that can be “fairly” called theft. Your mileage varies. Shrug.

I do not think it has passed yet but “wage theft” is what congress calls it.

H.R.4763 - Wage Theft Prevention and Wage Recovery Act

SEC. 2. Findings.

Congress finds the following:

(1) Wage theft occurs when an employer does not pay an employee for work that the employee has performed, depriving the worker of wages and earnings to which the worker is legally entitled. This theft occurs in many forms, including by employers violating minimum wage requirements, failing to pay overtime compensation, requiring off-the-clock work, failing to provide final payments, misclassifying employees as being exempt from overtime compensation or as independent contractors rather than as employees, and improperly withholding tips.

SOURCE: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/4763/text

So yeah, “theft” is where congress was going with it.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

VICE today:

The end result of all this is more than a little dystopian. Most people interact with major corporations in two ways: they work for them, and they buy stuff from them. The largest companies in the world have managed to saddle both of those interactions with burdensome and non-negotiable contracts. The net effect is that at every conceivable nodal point of contact between a human being and a corporation, the corporation has written a contract minimizing their liability for anything that might go wrong.

Of course, as Justice Gorsuch is quick to point out, you don’t have to agree to any of these contracts. It’s your choice! You could decide to opt out of every one of these agreements. You probably wouldn’t be able to order anything online, though, because just about every company from big online retailers to major food delivery websites have arbitration agreements. You couldn’t use Uber or any major ridesharing app—in fact, you wouldn’t be able to use many apps at all. But that’s a secondary concern, because you probably wouldn’t have a phone: all of the major service providers require you accept mandatory arbitration. You will, however, be able to ponder your choices during your frequent long walks, as automakers and car dealerships have been putting arbitration provisions in their consumer contracts for years.

Of course, those are secondary concerns, because you probably wouldn’t have a job.

There is, at the end of the day, no choice. If you want to exist in modern American society, you’re going to end up agreeing to contract terms that severely curtail your rights. The last time big businesses had this much leverage, they used it to force workers to sign yellow dog contracts—agreements that the worker would not join a union. In 1932, Congress passed the Norris-LaGuardia Act, which outlawed those contracts because of the disproportionate bargaining power between companies and workers. We now live in a similar moment, as corporations have successfully subverted worker and consumer plaintiff rights in nearly every conceivable arena. Absent legislation that places real limitations on the scope of the Federal Arbitration Act, the trend is likely to continue. Unfortunately, it’s reasonable to assume that just about every major corporation in America would actively oppose such legislation, and, in case you haven’t noticed, they’re writing all the rules.

[Slash1972]

I’m not sure how I’m agreeing to arbitration by purchasing lettuce at the grocery store.