Human bites hurt, they can do significant damage, and they are notorious for causing nasty infections which can and do kill.
What more do we need to know about human bites to decide whether or not an immediate, forceful response is justified in preventing a second bite?
[/QUOTE]
if one cite lists 975 pounds as as six time greater than normal, and another lists normal as 60 times greater than that, clearly the definitions are using different criteria. Here’s one that says normal human chewing is 70 lbs. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9503E3DF103FF932A3575BC0A9609C8B63
Here’s yet another.
Link.
Clearly we need to define our terms. I have a Rottweiler who can demolish a cow bone in nothing flat. If her bite is 320 lbs, and mine is 60,000 lbs, why can’t I do the same?
[QUOTE=Mr2001]
That status seems a lot more “subjugated” than “protected”, but yes, I think they should be treated the same as anyone else who wants to slip out and walk the streets at 3 AM.
I recognize that there are legitimate concerns about their safety, but there are legitimate concerns about other groups’ safety too (based on gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. depending on the area), and I wouldn’t deny those groups the freedom to walk outdoors at night either.
No less valid than if he convinces a 16, 21, or 53 year old to have sex. (The age of consent is already 16 or lower in most states.) Of course, if she doesn’t know what she’s agreeing to, or if she’s drugged or coerced, then her consent isn’t valid no matter how old she is. A naive adult’s consent is no better than a naive teenager’s.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t see any reason to continue this, as it is obvious that we don’t agree. I don’t and will never have children, but I am glad the majority of people don’t agree with your ideas concerning the protection of children. They have plenty of time to get hurt or get themselves in trouble once they turn 18; I see no pressing need to let them start the process any earlier.
[QUOTE=you with the face]
I have no dog in this fight, but for all you all insisting that the officer’s punch was an instinctive reflex, I encourage you all to think a little harder. Honesty is more correct than you guys are.
If something is biting/burning/stinging/scratching my hand, what’s my first impulse? *It’s to motherfucking withdraw my hand from the thing that is inflicting the pain. * It makes no sense to think I would actually bring my hand closer to the source of pain by hitting it. That would not be in my hand’s best interest. That is foolishness from an instinctual point of view. If anything, instinct would cause my non-bit hand to hit the biter before doing anything else. I can’t imagine leading a reflex-driven defense with an injured body part.
I’ve been bit and scratched by many cats while attempting to restrain them in much the same way that the cop was restraining the girl, and I’ve always somehow managed to not punch or slap them. The time it takes for an animal to bite me and illicit my withdraw reflex is plenty of time for my neocortex to kick in and guide my subsequent actions.
I think some of you are going overboard defending the cop. I don’t think his actions were unforgivable, but I don’t think he handled things well at all. Her arm was cranked at a ridiculous looking angle. If she was in pain, that may be why she was resisting. She was stupid for putting up a fight, yes.
[/QUOTE]
Have you ever seen a nasty bug crawling on your shirt or pants and brushed it off quickly with little or no conscious thought?
[QUOTE=brazil84]
Have you ever seen a nasty bug crawling on your shirt or pants and brushed it off quickly with little or no conscious thought?
[/quote]
That’s not comparable because a bug is not eliciting a reflex to pain, for Christ’s sake. Scary bug crawling on my arm doesn’t kick in the sensory motor pathways that a bite or burn to the hand does.
Ask any veterinarian or animal technician who handles animals for a living. How many of them have been bit while restraining a beastie? How many have responded by punching said beastie in the face? How many would be out of a job for doing such a thing, especially in front of a client? If a vet or tech can find a way to hold back those “reflexes” when dealing with fractious animals on a regular basis, surely a cop can do the same thing with a teenager who looks like a black Olive Oyl.
I don’t think the cop deserves to be taken to the woodshed for this, but I do object to what seems like “he couldn’t help it” defense displayed in this thread. It’s absurd and pathetically overboard, as is the “human bites cause diseases!” and “the human mouth can exert 10,000 lbs of pressure!” defenses. Can’t we all agree that the cop lost his cool by punching the girl like that? Period. That seems real obvious to me. Was his reaction understandable? Yes. Wrong? Yes to that too. If punching a struggling dog or cat for biting me is liable to get me in trouble as a vet, I’m thinking a law enforcer should be held to the same standard, if not greater. Since he’s dealing with humans and all.
An action being taken without thought doesn’t make it 1) a reflex or 2) excusable. Write that down. Many a person has killed someone else with “little or no conscious thought”. Where are they? In prison.
[QUOTE=you with the face]
That’s not comparable because a bug is not eliciting a reflex to pain, for Christ’s sake. Scary bug crawling on my arm doesn’t kick in the sensory motor pathways that a bite or burn to the hand does.
[/quote]
For me, it triggers a “get rid of offensive thing” instinct. Looks to me like that’s the same thing that happened with the cop.
Perhaps not, but it’s an important factor to consider. For example, most people would agree that the kid in that video should not be charged with assault. On the other hand, if he had waited 2 seconds and then delivered the same punch, it would be different.
[QUOTE=brazil84]
For me, it triggers a “get rid of offensive thing” instinct. Looks to me like that’s the same thing that happened with the cop.
[/quote]
Please think about this. “Get rid of offensive thing” would mean him withdrawing and maybe even letting her go. Not standing there holding her down with one hand, punching her with the other. If he was really acting out in reflex, his animal brain would have overruled his human one and he would stopped restraining her. That’s what happens to most people bitten by animals that they are doing a poor job of restraining (as he was).
Not really. What might not be enough to get him charged with assault still could get him fired, suspended, or severly reprimanded. I expect cops to be able to hold themselves back a little better than he did.
[QUOTE=you with the face]
Ask any veterinarian or animal technician who handles animals for a living. How many of them have been bit while restraining a beastie? How many have responded by punching said beastie in the face? How many would be out of a job for doing such a thing, especially in front of a client? If a vet or tech can find a way to hold back those “reflexes” when dealing with fractious animals on a regular basis, surely a cop can do the same thing with a teenager who looks like a black Olive Oyl.
[/QUOTE]
That’s the difference between law enforcement and doctors. Have you ever watched Animal Cops and how they subdue agitated and potentially violent animals? You want 15 year old girls treated like that? Animals who bite are really good candidates for being put down, possibly shot right there on the spot.
What do doctors do when dealing with an uncooperative potentially violent patient? They strap them down, possibly sedate them and order a psych eval.
I don’t think we really want cops treating 15 year old curfew breakers as animals or violent patients.
[QUOTE=you with the face]
Please think about this. “Get rid of offensive thing” would mean him withdrawing and maybe even letting her go. Not standing there holding her down with one hand, punching her with the other. If he was really acting out in reflex, his animal brain would have overruled his human one and he would stopped restraining her. That’s what happens to most people bitten by animals that they are doing a poor job of restraining (as he was).
[/quote]
No that’s actually not true in the least. Have you ever wrestled anyone? You don’t think about what you’re doing. You react. If someone bites me I’m likely to punch them in the snoot. And I won’t hold back like this cop definitely did. If you wouldn’t lash out at something biting you, you don’t have very good reflexes.
[QUOTE=levdrakon]
That’s the difference between law enforcement and doctors. Have you ever watched Animal Cops and how they subdue agitated and potentially violent animals?
[/quote]
Have you ever worked in an animal hospital. Like, in the real world? Like me?
An animal who bites under duress (like, when they are being restrained against their will) is an everyday occurence, and euthanasia is not a consideration for them. You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about if you think euthanasia and being shot on the spot belongs in this discussion.
Had this cop continued to struggle with this kid to get her cuffed it probably would have resulted in a broken wrist to her at least, or a broken arm at worst. I wonder what the posters here would say then?
It is amazing the standard to which police are held. It is truly a damned if you dont, damned if you do job. IMO he did the one thing he could to subdue her with as little risk of injury to himself or the child.
The girl was an idiot at 15. I dont imagine had she been 21, she would have been any smarter but I doubt people would care as much.
On the she is a child / no she is not a child she should have the same rights as an adult / no she should not debate, I have to say this. From a physical standpoint a 15 year old is mostly if not completely an adult. What is not adult yet is the decision making and judgment parts of their brain. I have heard teenagers described as being all nerve endings and hormones. For those of us that are adults (over say 25), think back. Did you do any stupid things that in retrospect amazes at your own stupidity? I know I did, and when I look back at those incidents all I can think of is :smack: and I say WTF were you thinking Rick?
This is the reason that we don’t let 10 year olds drive cars or buy guns.
Anyone who disagrees with this IMHO is either still under 25, has never raised kids, or has an industrial strength pair of rose colored glasses.
[QUOTE=you with the face]
Have you ever worked in an animal hospital. Like, in the real world? Like me?
An animal who bites under duress (like, when they are being restrained against their will) is an everyday occurence, and euthanasia is not a consideration for them. You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about if you think euthanasia and being shot on the spot belongs in this discussion.
[/QUOTE]
I think he’s talking about grabbing a feral dog off the street. If it’s snarling and got a case of the dog-crazies it’s different than taking a fecal swab of Mr. Mittens at the clinic.
[QUOTE=you with the face]
Please think about this. “Get rid of offensive thing” would mean him withdrawing and maybe even letting her go.
[/quote]
It might mean that, but it might not. For example, I react differently to a bug if I’m driving a car. Even though there is not much thought involved, I know down to the core that I can’t take both hands off the wheel.
If you were standing there and noticed a nasty bug on yourself, you might brush it off with both hands. But if you had a cup of hot liquid in one hand, you might use only 1 hand.
Let’s break it down:
Do you think the kid in the video should have been charged or, assuming the event took place in his school, disciplined?
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
if one cite lists 975 pounds as as six time greater than normal, and another lists normal as 60 times greater than that, clearly the definitions are using different criteria. Here’s one that says normal human chewing is 70 lbs.
[/QUOTE]
Pounds is a measure of force; pounds(or tons) per square inch is a measure of pressure. You’re arguing apples and oranges here.
[QUOTE=kidchameleon]
Pounds is a measure of force; pounds(or tons) per square inch is a measure of pressure. You’re arguing apples and oranges here.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Hence my request for a definition of terms. Or at least some kind of conversion factor.
[QUOTE=you with the face]
I have no dog in this fight, but for all you all insisting that the officer’s punch was an instinctive reflex, I encourage you all to think a little harder. Honesty is more correct than you guys are.
If something is biting/burning/stinging/scratching my hand, what’s my first impulse? *It’s to motherfucking withdraw my hand from the thing that is inflicting the pain. * It makes no sense to think I would actually bring my hand closer to the source of pain by hitting it. That would not be in my hand’s best interest. That is foolishness from an instinctual point of view. If anything, instinct would cause my non-bit hand to hit the biter before doing anything else. I can’t imagine leading a reflex-driven defense with an injured body part.
[/QUOTE]
One of the things I most regret is my reaction when my dog bite me several years ago. I was trying to take away a bone, he bite and I punched him right in the snout. It was instantaneous and shocked both of us.
I think you are mistaken thinking your reaction is the only normal one.
[QUOTE=you with the face]
Have you ever worked in an animal hospital. Like, in the real world? Like me?
[/quote]
Pay attention. You’re drawing an analogy between law enforcement and doctors. Apples and oranges. I’m comparing people enforcement and animal enforcement. That’s closer, and you don’t want people getting treated like animals.
Pay attention please. Law enforcement vs. doctors at the vet. A large dog who manages to sink his teeth into an animal control officer is likely to get shot. If not, it’s still quite likely to be euthanized later, if it can’t pass the adoptability tests, or it’s got rabies, whatever. A veterinarian working on a scared animal in a clinic would be stupid to not already have a muzzle on it and if he or she were that stupid and got bit, no, the animal wouldn’t be euthanized automatically in that case.
[QUOTE=Foxy40]
One of the things I most regret is my reaction when my dog bite me several years ago. I was trying to take away a bone, he bite and I punched him right in the snout. It was instantaneous and shocked both of us.
I think you are mistaken thinking your reaction is the only normal one.
[/QUOTE]
Oh man, I did the same thing once.
To my baby.
While nursing.
…
(Ok, it was a little two fingered slap on the nose, but still! He cried for 20 seconds and I sobbed for 2 hours.)