One season’s difference. He didn’t even break 40% of his appearances at first.
It’s no big deal. I chose third because that’s where he played the couple of times I got to see him. But yeah, there should probably be a catch-all category for players like him.
Lou Gehrig
Eddie Murray
Jimmie Foxx
Cap Anson
George Sisler
Rod Carew
Harmon Killebrew
Jim Thome
Willie McCovey
Boozahol, why Thome over Mize?
Lou Gehrig
Jimmie Foxx
Willie McCovey
Harmon Killebrew
Eddie Murray
Don Mattingly
Jeff Bagwell
Keith Hernandez
Hank Greenberg
Cap Anson
Support seems to have dropped off for Hernandez, one of the best defensive players in a position not noted for defense, and a true first baseman–not someone moved to first when he got too slow to play another position. (Yeah, I know I voted for Killebrew, but I saw him play mostly at first.)
Carew and Pujols were left off because 1) Carew was a better 2nd baseman, and 2) Pujols hasn’t played long enough for my consideration.
The Carew votes actually bother me. As a First Basemen he was a good hitting, low powered solid glove. He was nothing spectacular. As a second baseman he was one of the best ever. He is more likely to get my vote there then at first. If he was a power hitter or a great defensive asset I could see picking him over some others, but I feel like I am missing something with him being picked.
I would love to have one of his voters explain why he deserves one of the crowded spots at first.
RickJay: This is also a bit of a problem, in the actual hall, there are many first baseman and only a few third baseman. I was wondering what your thoughts were on dealing with this situation?
We’re not concerned about who’s in Cooperstown. Their failure to elect enough third basemen isn’t our problem. It’s worth noting that George Kelly is in the Hall of Fame, so the quality of first basemen in there is not terrific. George Kelly wasn’t half the player John Olerud was, and we seem to be in gewneral agreement Olerud is not up to HoF standard, so that should tell you something.
Now, personally, I really don’t think there’s any reason to believe the body of first basemen across major league history is actually that much better than the third basemen. There are more first basemen with superficially better hitting stats, but third basemen have more defensive value.
But it’s entirely up to you. We’re going to have Wild Card Rounds. Everyone will get a chance to vote again, and you’ll enjoy the process because we’ll have some neat ways of doing that voting. Those rounds won’t be position specific, so we may in fact end up with 13 first basemen and 11 third basemen, but ultimately it’s up to the SDMB.
As to my picks, what “younger guys” did I choose? Those are all retired guys or old farts.
The recent mentions of John Olerud and Keith Hernandez make me want to note that the two of them have identical career OPS+, in a very similar number of PA (about 500 more for Olerud.)
Hernandez is generally considered the greatest fielding 1B of his era (and possibly of all time), but John Olerud was also an excellent fielder, with multiple well-earned gold gloves.
I personally don’t put much stock in the importance of 1B defense. That is, I think the the number of runs a great 1B saves you isn’t all that much larger that the number of runs a merely very good 1B saves you in the field. And yet that difference is enough to place Hernandez in many Top-10-of-all-time 1B lists, while Olerud is, as RickJay puts it, “[by general agreement] not up to HoF standards.”
I confess that my opinions about 1B defense may be antiquated; perhaps zone ratings and range factors and such have shed new light on the importance of defense for first basemen. Any opinions on Olerud vs. Hernandez?
I voted for Carew. I assumed that if he was listed with the first basemen he wouldn’t be on the second basemen list as well, and to me, he’s a Hall of Famer, one way or the other and I didn’t want to leave him out.
I think Rickjay assessment of Olerud is accurate. I also agree that Hernandez was no better than guys like Olerud or Will Clark. Defense just isn’t that important for a 1st baseman. There is just no way a 1st baseman can have an Ozzie Smith type impact.
I’m kind of miffed on how we are doing top ten all time lists and guys who are fringe hall of fame candidates are being picked. I don’t think Hernandez or Mattingly are in the top ten for the last 30 years, let alone all time.
My list
Lou Gehrig
Jimmie Foxx
Jeff Bagwell
Willie McCovey
Harmon Killebrew
Eddie Murray
Frank Thomas
Mark Mcgwire
Johnny Mize
Cap Anson
Hernandez gives horrible hair dye commercials. That alone should DQ him.
Will there be a DH position ,Rick?
My pick of Hernadez is the hardest one for me to defend, however, Hernandez & Mattingly were vastly better defensively than even an excellent glove guy like Olerud. Sticking to Hernandez, who I picked:
He had from my memory twice the range, made the 3-6-3 play effortlessly and was great at chasing foul balls deep and even into the stands. He was also better at flagging down errant throws to first and thus made his infield defense look better. I don’t put Olerud’s defense and Hernandez’s on the same level at all. To me Olerud was only about as good as Tino Martinez. They both had very good gloves but not a huge difference in a game.
Now the argument that Johnny Mize’s offensive advantage outweighed Hernadez’s defensive excellence may well be true. I just chose to recognize the best of the great defensive players at first.
Olerud to me does not qualify for the hall by any method. Even Mattingly is not a Hall of Famer and I would take Mattingly over Olerud without a moment’s hesitation.
Jim
Bah, humbug.
If we’re not permitted sentimental/subjective votes for guys who we, personally, value more than they are objectively worth, then this is a boring conversation that can be quickly and easily resolved by making a sequential list of VORP or possibly Win Shares by position.
I’d point out that RickJay has not asked us to list “The Top Ten First Basemen of All Time,” but rather, to list the players that we, personally, consider the ten best at this position for the Hall of Fame. Which is a different question.
Keith Hernandez was responsible for some of the biggest baseball moments of my own childhood, was the #3 hitter for the best Mets team ever, has an OBP near .400 for his career, was a game-changing defensive player, and had the best moustache of the last two decades. He’s in my mental Hall of Fame, and I feel no shame for voting for him for this one.
By young guys I meant these four:
Rod Carew
Eddie Murray
Frank Thomas
Jeff Bagwell
I just wanted to hear your thoughts on them. I only had one of them for my top 10 list.
No, basically because there simply are not that many candidates. Name five players who played most of their games at DH who had significant careers. I bet you can’t do it. I can’t - I can only think of four, including Big Papi.
They’ll get their shot in the wild card rounds.
Thomas is one of the most dominant hitters ever. Murray had, even by 1B standards, a career of exceptional length and quality.
Carew and Bagwell were close calls, but they were certainly better players than most of the candidates. If someone wants to argue for one or two candidates past them they might well be right, but they were certainly much greater players than Mattingly or Hernandez.
I’m a big fan of Keith Hernandez and I agree he’s probably the best defensive first baseman of modern times, but I don’t think it’s any insult to say he wasn’t quite the overall force Jeff Bagwell was. I’m not totally sold on Bagwell, but this was a very hard ballot to make out.
Incidentally, I wholeheartedly agree with this position.
Folks, I think some discussion and debate would be fun in these theads. Please do not criticize or cast aspersions on other people’s votes. You’ll simply be convincing people not to participate. The process, I believe, will work. Please trust in it.
Keith Hernandez is a reasonable vote. I don’t AGREE with it, since I didn’t put him on my list, but he’s an arguable choice and is certainly very underrated today. If someone comes along and votes for Lyle Overbay then I’ll question their sanity and/or seriousness, but Hernandez is a decent pick. There are MUCH worse players in the real Hall of Fame than Keith Hernandez.
Well that was a lackluster defense of Bagwell.
I think Bagwell is a top 5 all time 1st baseman, and despite being a likely first ballot hall of famer is still pretty underrated. In his prime he put up some obscene offensive numbers. He did this mostly with home games an extreme pitchers part and before offensive numbers completely took off. If he got to play in Minute Maid during his prime the numbers would have been staggering. Well, more staggering. In 1994, he hit 368/451/750 with a OPS+213. For those who prefer more traditional stats he had 39 hrs, 32 doubles, 116 rbis, and 104 runs in only 110 games/400 at bats. From 1996-2000 his lowest on base percentage was 424. He has been over 450 three times in his career. In 1999 he scored 143 runs and topped it with 152 the next year. He was over 40 home-runs 3 times and had 39 three more times. His avg numbers over 162 games, including a lackluster end to his career, were 37 2b, 34 hr, 297 avg, 408 obp, 540 slg, 115 rbis, 114 runs, and 15 steals.
Plus, unlike most 1st baseman he provided a lot of value on the bases and in the field as well. He stole 30 bases twice and had over 200 in his career. He wasn’t quite Keith Hernandez, but he was an excellent defensive 1st baseman. So while he wasn’t quite the hitter that Mcgwire or Thomas was he has enough extras to make up the difference.
I guess there’s a fine line between “casting an aspersion” and “desiring a discussion.” I’m not worried about the process working; of course it will, and it’s very cool. I brought up the comparison between Hernandez and Olerud because I think it’s an interesting discussion, not because I think Hernandez is a terrible top 10 choice. (Clearly he’s not, since so many learned folks here are including him.)
Similarly, when I see Andres Galarraga on a list, I’m not going to say “that’s an awful choice,” but it is an unexpected choice, and I’m curious about the rationale behind it – whether it’s statistical, sentimental, or otherwise.
For what it’s worth, I voted for Keith Hernandez primarily because of his defensive prowess. He was, I believe, the best defensive first baseman ever, and I think any man who is the best ever at his position is worthy of consideration.
Now, some would argue that Wes Parker was about as good as Hernandez defensively- would I put Wes in the Hall of Fame? No, just as I wouldn’t vote for the best defensive shortstop I ever saw regularly (Mark Belanger) or the best defensive catcher I ever saw regularly (Jerry Grote), because those guys just didn’t have anywhere near the offensive numbers to justify it.
There have been many, many first basemen with offensive numbers about as good as Keith’s- if he were just a slightly better than average defensive first baseman, I wouldn’t vote for him. But his offensive numbers were very good and his defensive abilities were unmatched. Hence, my vote.
I won’t gripe if the majority doesn’t agree with me, but neither will I be shouted down.
Gehrig
Foxx
Greenberg
Sisler
Brouthers
Bagwell
McCovey
Anson
Thomas
Mize