SDMB Hall of Fame Project: First Basemen

The Game Room
1

Welcome back to the SDMB Baseball Hall of Fame Project. In this round we will be voting on first basemen.

If you’d like to see past rounds of voting, please see:

Round 1: The Inner Circle

Part 2: Catchers

The purpose of this thread is to elect ten more first basemen to the SDMB Hall of Fame.

Every person voting is asked to submit a ballot with the names of ten first basemen you think are most deserving of enshrinement. As is always the case in the SDMB Hall of Fame Project, you may vote for ANYONE who has ever played first base in the major leagues or in major level Negro League baseball (though note there will be an election specifically for the Negro Leagues.) The player’s eligibility or lack thereof for the real life Hall of Fame is irrelevant;** you may even vote for active players.**

I have provided below a helpful list of all first basemen I can think of who are in the Hall of Fame, had a career of substantial length, or are of particular note. This is NOT an authoritative ballot; I may have missed someone and if so please let me know. This list is solely for your benefit and is not a limitation.

Vote away!

ALREADY ELECTED: Lou Gehrig

Prince Fielder
Albert Pujols
Bill White
Boog Powell
Rod Carew
Harry Davis
Miguel Cabrera
Paul Konerko
Andres Galaragga
Buck Leonard
Joe Adcock
John Olerud
Jimmie Foxx
Lu Blue
Jake Daubert
Frank McCormick
Mickey Vernon
Rudy York
Gil Hodges
George Kelly
Rafael Palmiero
Bill Terry
Jason Giambi
Cap Anson
Cecil Fielder
Ted Kluszewski
Bob Watson
Chris Chambliss
Carlos Delgado
Ben Taylor
Don Mattingly
Adrian Gonzalez
Willie McCovey
Todd Helton
Len Pearson
Roger Connor
Jeff Bagwell
Eddie Murray
Ed Konetechy
Mark Grace
Jim Bottomley
Cecil Cooper
Jack Fournier
Will Clark
Mule Suttles
Jake Beckley
Tony Perez
Wally Joyner
Luke Easter
Paul Goldschmidt
Justin Morneau
Buck O’Neil
Dan Brouthers
Hank Sauer
Johnny Mize
Eddie Murray
Hank Greenberg
Mark Teixiera
Fred McGriff
Frank Thomas (the one who played for the White Sox in the 90s-00s)
Jim Thome
Joey Votto
Norm Cash
Bobby Marshall
Frank Chance
Orlando Cepeda
George Sisler
Mark McGwire
Keith Hernandez
Al Robinson
Harmon Killebrew
Dolph Camilli

HEY, RICK, WHY IS HE NOT IN THIS LIST?
Lou Gehrig was elected in the Inner Circle Election
David Ortiz will be on the DH/multipositional ballot.
Pete Rose will be on the DH/multipositional ballot
Stan Musial will be on the Left Fielder ballot
Adam Dunn will be on the Left Fielder ballot
Carl Yastrzemski will be on the Left Fielder ballot
Ernie Banks will be on the Shortstop ballot
Joe Torre was on the Catcher ballot.

2

RickJay, will Rod Carew also be available at second base?

3

Jimmie Foxx
Albert Pujols
Jeff Bagwell
Cap Anson
Frank Thomas
Eddie Murray
Jim Thome
Johnny Mize
Willie McCovey
Harmon Killebrew

4

I found the catchers surprisingly obvious. After I decided not to vote for Josh Gibson, putting him in the Negro leagues pool instead, I had eight really clear choices. My ninth and 10th players were Joe Mauer and Ted Simmons, and it didn’t take much thought to decide to put them over Gabby Hartnett and Bill Dickey. Wondering if the first baseman balloting will break down quite as easily. I’m guessing that it won’t, but it will be interesting to see!

5

I think this was a much harder list, personally. I’m glad that Lou Gehrig was already in, I’m not sure who else I would knock off the list to get down to 10 again.

Albert Pujols
Jimmie Foxx
Johnny Mize
Jeff Bagwell
Hank Greenberg
Dan Brouthers
George Sisler
Cap Anson
Willie McCovey
Roger Connor

6

The multi-position guys really make this difficult.

Case in point (besides Carew and the guys Rick already mentioned): Miggy Cabrera. BR gives him 14 seasons at 69.6 WAR (77.6 oWAR, -15dWAR), which puts him pretty high up on the 1B cumulative WAR list. He’s ahead of guys like McCovey, Eddie Murray, and Keith Hernandez.

The problem is that he’s played 8 seasons with 971 games started at 1B, the most he’s played at any position. O.K., so put him at 1st, but he’s also played 9 seasons with 689 games started at 3B, and third’s where he played most of the games when he won back-to-back AL MVPs in 2012 and '13. It’s a toughie. What percentage of games played at 1B count for this, Rick?

And about Frank Thomas…he played 1308 games as a DH, and I think of him as a DH, but he played 968 as a 1B, and he won his back-to-back MVPs as a 1B. Sigh.

Off the top of my head…
I’d have put Gehrig in, but no double counting, and no ranking, so:
[ul]
[li]Bagwell,[/li][li]Pujols,[/li][li]Foxx.[/li][li]McCovey[/li][/ul]
After playing with BR some…
[ul]
[li]Johnny Mize (especially if, like Williams, Feller et al, you think what might have been if WW2 didn’t happen)[/li][li]Rod Carew (despite the near 50/50 split in 1B/2B games, he won the MVP playing 1B, and besides, he played 1B with the Angels when I watched him as a kid.)[/li][li]Rafael Palmeiro (Hilarious that he lost HOF eligibility after three years. More than 3000 hits, 500 HR. And more than zero positive steroid tests. Whoops.)[/li][li]Jim Thome [/li][li]Eddie Murray[/li][li]Harmon Killebrew[/li][/ul]

I really wanted to put Keith Hernandez in there, but today I couldn’t. Ask me tomorrow and I might, or Greenberg, Todd Helton, Olerud, or McGwire goes in.

Rose goes in the OF pool; Cabrera with the 3B.

Skipped Anson, Brouthers, and Connor, and I’d skip Cy Young were it not for his eponymous award. Pre WW1 is just a different game.

EDIT: Oh, and Congratulations on your wedding, Rick!

7

For whatever reason, the catchers were pretty easy. This one was tough - I found too many different ways to judge them. How much do I weigh sluggers versus contact hitters? Is a dominant span of 5-7 years more important than a long stretch of consistent production? What about the guys with WWII in the middle? Pre-WWI players? In the end, I ended up not entirely consistent, and I’d probably have a different list tomorrow.

Hank Greenberg
Jimmie Foxx
Albert Pujols
Johnny Mize
Buck Leonard
Willie McCovey
George Sisler
Jeff Bagwell
Miguel Cabrera
Eddie Murray

I debated about Buck Leonard for here vs the Negro League, but finally decided to include him. It’s impossible to know how he’d have done in MLB, but I think the best at his position in his league deserves to be in the regular HOF.

I kept Cabrera - he deserves to be in the HOF, and since you included him on this ballot I assume he won’t be on the 3rd baseman ballot.

8

For me, the only no-doubt inclusions were Foxx and Pujols, who are far and away the best out there. Mize nearly makes the list on his WAR total even when you don’t take into consideration his loss of 3 years to military service in the heart of his career - he trails only Foxx, Pujols, and Anson if you give him 5 WAR per year for those years (well under his established value). Carew gets in if he’s a first baseman not a second; Bagwell is a sentimental favorite and also deserving and Thomas was great as well. Leonard goes in as the top Negro League player at his position. Speaking of the Negro Leagues, I thought of dropping Cap Anson for helping to establish baseball’s color line, but left him in. Ignore that factor and he clearly deserves it even if you discount for the 19th century.

The last two came down to Greenberg, Thome, and Brouthers - Brouthers has way more WAR but is a 19th century guy and I already have one of those. Thome is only the third-best of his era and is on this list thanks to longevity rather than a very bright peak. Greenberg only has 57.5 WAR but also missed three years to the war, though they were late in his career and not early as Mize’s were. I finally dropped Brouthers for the 19th century discount.

Albert Pujols
Jimmie Foxx
Johnny Mize
Rod Carew
Jeff Bagwell
Frank Thomas
Buck Leonard
Cap Anson
Hank Greenberg
Jim Thome
Other late cuts:
George Sisler (absolutely brilliant through his age-29 season - was badly injured and never the same again. Not quite enough.)
Miguel Cabrera (will be on this list in a few more years, probably taking Thome’s slot).
Willie McCovey (only 64 WAR doesn’t quite cut it on this list).

9

So, I have a procedural question having to do with multiposition players.

As some folks have noted, first base is loaded with terrific players. For catcher, I found ten guys who I thought were deserving, and could probably have justified a couple more–not much beyond that, though. A quick look at first base reveals a much larger pool of players I’d like to put in. That’s fine, BUT…people have already brought up Carew, Thomas, and Cabrera as guys who weren’t *just *first basemen. I’m not sure what the criteria are for determining who is multiposition and who isn’t, but if these guys don’t qualify, I’m wondering who does. Rose, I’m sure. Molitor? And the DHs.

I guess I just think that I (at least) am goinjg to have trouble choosing ten from a ballot consisting of a few true multiposition guys and a handful of fulltime DHs. I’d love to see the Carews, Thomases, Cabreras moved onto that ballot, which would make it possible for me to vote for more people I think deserving.

Now, maybe there are lots of multiposition athletes I’m not thinking of. And I don’t want to mess up anyone’s carefully-laid plans. Just seems like this is a very, very deep pool of first basemen, and a much shallower pool of DH/multiposition guys, and I’m thinking I’m gonna have to leave some very deserving guys out this time around–and put some less deserving guys in later on.

Specific case: Not sure I’ll have room for Frank Thomas as a first baseman. But for me he clearly beats out anyone else who spent significant time as a DH. I’d rather not have to vote for someone I think of as inferior!

Just my 2 c.

10

He is available at any position he ever played. You could vote for his as a shortstop if you wanted. T**he list is not a limiting ballot, it’s just to help remind you of who is available.

You can vote for anyone who has ever played a single inning at that position, whether or not I named them.**

You can even vote for the people who I explained why I didn’t list them.

[QUOTE=Gray Ghost]
What percentage of games played at 1B count for this, Rick?
[/QUOTE]

Up to you.

The multipositional and second chance ballots will include all pretty good players about whom the argument can be made. Everyone you’re mentioning will show up there.

11

Recall that Gehrig is already in, folks.

This is a tough ballot. I have 6 guys who are crystal clear cases:
Albert Pujols
Jimmie Foxx
Jeff Bagwell
Johnny Mize
Frank Thomas
Jim Thome
But then I have about 7 or so whom are in a very tight group:

Miguel Cabrera

Still active, so need to be a bit cautious. Still, peak is superior to the borderline guys.

Todd Helton

Even with a Coors discount, he still looks very good, peak very strong, good D.

Willie McCovey

Even with a slight timeline takedown, still has the fearsome peak. The 1960’s environment probably hurt him, even after making the proper adjustments.

Hank Greenberg

With war credit, I think he easily makes the cut. Very close to Mize (who has a few more good seasons).

Actually, Big Hurt is probably closer to this group than to the top one (thanks mainly to crappy D). Really, 4 through 13 are pretty durned close.
Guys who missed the cut:

Mark McGwire. Nice peak, but he doesn’t have much of anything beyond that, with his injuries and all.

Rafael Palmeiro. Opposite of Big Mac, lots of solid seasons, usually in the lineup, but few truly spectacular ones.

Eddie Murray: Simply cannot compete on peak with everybody else.

19th century guys (Anson/Brouthers/Connor)-since I timeline fairly heavily, these guys weren’t quite in contention for the top 10. Make it top 15 and I likely consider them more.
So, in this order:
Albert Pujols
Jimmie Foxx
Jeff Bagwell
Johnny Mize
Frank Thomas
Jim Thome
Miguel Cabrera
Todd Helton
Willie McCovey
Hank Greenberg

Top spot: timeline makes all the difference between Pujols and Foxx, but even with the air taken out the latter still looks pretty fearsome.
Edit: I think I will save the likes of Carew for the multipositional ballot. Unless they played ~75% or more of their games at the same position, that’s where they belong. I consider DH & 1B to be the same position for this purpose.

12

Are we doing non-player contributors? Buck O’Neil is very much a hall of famer, but probably not for his first base play.

Jeff Bagwell
Albert Pujols
Cap Anson
Frank Thomas
Jim Thome
Miguel Cabrera
Johnny Mize
Willie McCovey
Eddie Murray
Mark Mcgwire

13

What a loaded position! This was tough.

Albert Pujols
Rod Carew
Jimmie Foxx
Bill Terry
Willie McCovey
Jeff Bagwell
Eddie Murray
Johnny Mize
Hank Greenberg
Frank Thomas

14

Nice article about Johnny Mize that includes the immortal near-end-of-career tribute from Dan Parker:

“Your arm is gone, your legs likewise, but not your eyes, Mize, not your eyes,” wrote New York sportswriter Dan Parker, inspired by the aging slugger’s ability to drag his bulk and his bat to the plate and deposit baseballs anywhere on the field, and often beyond it.

Link

15

Cap Anson
Jeff Bagwell
Jimmy Foxx
Hank Greenberg
Keith Hernandez
Johnny Mize
Eddie Murray
Willie McCovey
Albert Pujols
Frank Thomas

16

Albert Pujols
Jimmie Foxx
Cap Anson
Jeff Bagwell
Frank Thomas
Johnny Mize
Jim Thome
Miguel Cabrera
Eddie Murray
Hank Greenberg
It still boggles my mind that Jim Thome – Jim Thome – is the all-time HR leader among first basemen. And 7th all-time, period! Yes, he played in a slugger’s age, but still.

17

Jimmie Foxx
Hank Greenberg
Harmon Killebrew
Willie McCovey
Eddie Murray
Stan Musial
Tony Perez
Albert Pujols
Pete Rose
Frank Thomas

Listed in alphabetical order

Like many others, I had trouble with a number of names deciding whether they should be on this list or one of the ones still to come.

18

Willie McCovey
Albert Pujols
Jim Thome
Frank Thomas (not even six full seasons at First, but whatever)
Miguel Cabrera
Jeff Bagwell
Eddie Murray
Keith Hernandez
Harmon Killebrew
Johnny Mize

Nineteenth century players, lol.

19

Albert Pujols
Rod Carew
Miguel Cabrera
Jimmie Foxx
Willie McCovey
Jeff Bagwell
Harmon Killebrew
Hank Greenberg
Frank Thomas
Johnny Mize

20

If you accredit all his home runs to his being a first baseman he is, but Thome played fewer than half his career games at first base. If you actually added up “home runs hit while playing first base” he might not even be top twenty.

Anyway, here’s my ballot:

Albert Pujols
Rod Carew
Jimmie Foxx
Willie McCovey
Jeff Bagwell
Johnny Mize
Frank Thomas
Miguel Cabrera
Hank Greenberg
Eddie Murray

I have to admit I found this a very hard ballot to fill out as well. Murray ended up making the cut just because I was trying to weigh about six guys for that spot and decided I wanted to fill in someone from Murray’s time period. Certainly you could argue six guys should be in there.

I gave Greenberg and Mize full credit for time missed to the war. The war probably cost Johnny Mize 15-20 WAR; from 1937 to 1948 the only seasons in which Mize didn’t put up MVP or near-MVP numbers were the ones he was in the Navy. Greenberg, who actually joined the Army before Pearl Harbor, was discharged after Pearl Harbor and then promptly re-enlisted, probably lost as many or more, and upon re-enlisting told the Sporting News he assumed it was ending his baseball career. (He did have a few more seasons after, as it turned out.)

I have a story about Hank Greenberg, too, which I’ve told before but will again; my grandfather spent part of his teenage years in Detroit, and one afternoon he and his friends came across a beautiful car they knew was Hank Greenberg’s. They knew this because it was the fashion of the time for kids (I hope mostly kids) to sign their name on celebrities’ cars. I guess petty vandalism was in vogue. Anyway, his friends goaded my grandfather - a quiet, shy kinda guy - to sign it, and so he did, and as he prepared to put his pen to the car to affix his John Hancock to it, he was suddenly picked up by his collar, lifted into the air, and found himself face to face with Hammerin’ Hank himself (the friends were nowhere to be seen) who explained to my grandfather how he would die very painfully if ever he was seen again near Mr. Greenberg’s car.

My grandfather was always very proud that he had been threatened with death by a Hall of Famer.

People I Left Off:

  1. Everyone from the 19th century. I had Cap Anson on there, and then dumped him for I mean, I think we may have to have a special 19th century ballot. Anson was a great player and pioneer and very important and maybe I’m wrong to leave him out, but 19th century baseball just ain’t the same thing. I replaced him with Carew, who played less at first base than a lot of guys but he has to go somewhere.

  2. Negro League players. First base is not an especially strong position in Negro League history and the only realistic candidates are Buck Leonard and Turkey Stearnes, the latter of whom I left off my OP I think. I am not convinced Leonard was one of the ten best first basemen ever, as I was with Josh Gibson and catchers.

  3. A lot of first basemen from the Steroid Era: Todd Helton, Rafael Palmiero, Jim Thome, McGwire, etc. Not ALL of those guys were top ten material, surely? Anyway, I hate Rafael Palmiero.