SDMB Fantasy Football DYNASTY League: Year 14

[EllisDee]

@Jules_Andre

I was actually thinking that we could change the way the draft works to be even more simple. The downside is that the draft would take 2-3x longer, so we wouldn’t be able to draft around cut-down day (which has always been the goal of the league). There’s no reason we can’t give everyone X number of picks (say, 5). And then do the draft. Then you cut down players to actually claim your picks. If you draft 5 and cut 1, you only roster your first round pick and everyone else goes into the free agent pool for week 1. I haven’t thought how it would affect trades, but it seems simpler to me.

Okay I thought about this, slept, and I think I actually like it. And we could really do it. I envision it going like this:

Our draft starts the Monday after the NFL draft ends, so late April. Everyone gets exactly 5 picks. All trades are simple transactions, no “and last pick” corrections needed. Trading two players for one pick would be totally fine, no esoteric bookkeeping required. No need to have 25 players at the end of it.

It might go a little longer than 10 days, but who cares, we could literally do one full day per pick and still finish with two months to spare.

Then I guess we could do the Monday before the NFL season starts as our final 25 man cut down day, much like the NFL’s 53-man roster cutdown. No draft pick issues to worry about, just cut down to 25 and done. (Or I guess pick up free agents if you have less than 25 for whatever reason. Still fine.)

That could actually work. Draft your guys when the NFL does, see how they do in the preseason, make your final assessment then.

The only downside, and it’s a minor one, is that traditionally our draft is additional hype for the NFL season starting. I don’t see that as a reason not to try.

I’m not pushing for this, but I do think it would be easy to implement and would work quite elegantly. This speak to anyone?

[EllisDee]

@Hamlet

If his roster is complete, then nothing. If its not complete, then he gets a pick at the end of the draft to get to the full roster.

Am I missing something?

What do you mean if his roster is complete?

After the trade Hamlet has 21 guys so he gets four picks.

1.01, 1.11, 7.11, 8.11

After the trade Spiritus has 20 guys so he gets five picks.

2.01, 3.01, 4.01, 5.01, 7.01

Why do you promote the 7.11 and 8.11 to 2.11 and 3.11 when you don’t also promote the 7.01 to 6.01? You’re applying different rules to the two sides.

[Hamlet]

You’ve lost me. After the trade, I have 4 picks. They should be 1.01, 1.11, 2.11, and 3.11. Thats how the draft works.

It’s not that complicated.

[EllisDee]

After the trade Spiritus has 5 picks. They should be what? Use the exact same logic you used for yours.

[EllisDee]

I think I see the disconnect. In your scenario, Spiritus isn’t trading away 1.01. Your cuts are creating it, so you’re making 1.01, not him.

He in essence traded away his ability to create a first-round pick. But he still creates the five picks he needs, right? So that would be 2.01, 3.01, 4.01, 5.01, 6.01.

Still wrong (because you can’t create 1.01, only he can) but it would at least be internally consistent.

[Hamlet]

@EllisDee

After the trade Spiritus has 5 picks. They should be what? Use the exact same logic you used for yours.

2.01, 3.01, 4.01, 5.01, and the after draft pick if he’s not at the 25 roster spots.

[EllisDee]

That’s clearly a different rule than you applied to yours.

[Hamlet]

@EllisDee

I think I see the disconnect. In your scenario, Spiritus isn’t trading away 1.01. Your cuts are creating it, so you’re making 1.01, not him.

He in essence traded away his ability to create a first-round pick. But he still creates the five picks he needs, right? So that would be 2.01, 3.01, 4.01, 5.01, 6.01.

Still wrong (because you can’t create 1.01, only he can) but it would at least be internally consistent.

Again, I dont follow your reasoning. You seem caught up on stuff that just makes it more difficult. Spiritus has pick 1.01. He trades it to me. I now have 5 picks. I dont need the last one. He, since he traded the pick, needs one more to fill his roster, so it goes at the end.

Again, what am I missing?

[EllisDee]

You’re saying he traded away 1.01, so that counts against him in terms of creating draft picks. He loses that pick, and gets a makeup pick after the draft to even the books.

But you traded two guys away. Why doesn’t that count against you when you’re creating draft picks?

In order to be consistent with the rule applied to Spiritus in this situation, those two guys you traded away shouldn’t count in terms of creating your draft picks. Remember, you’re saying the pick that he traded away shouldn’t count in terms of creating his draft picks. Same thing.

The things you traded (his draft pick, your two guys) should be treated the same way in terms of fairness.

So instead of four draft picks, you only get to create two. Then the other two roster holes – which you created by trading two guys away just like Spiritus created his one hole by trading 1.01 away – come at the end of the draft.

Right?

[EllisDee]

@Hamlet

Spiritus has pick 1.01. He trades it to me. I now have 5 picks.

This is wrong, by the way. If Spiritus has pick 1.01, then the trade hasn’t happened yet. If the trade hasn’t happened yet, you only have two draft picks because you kept 23 guys.

Now the trade happens. Spiritus lost a draft pick which creates a hole he makes up at the end of the draft. You lost two players which makes two holes that you make up at the end of the draft.

Actually, let me edit the breakdown here. Two of those holes get filled. Specifically, pick 1.01 cancels out one of the two guys you traded. The only hole left is the one you created by trading away the second guy.

So by this logic your picks should actually be 1.01, 1.11, 2.11, 7.11.

Which is what it actually is, amazingly enough. You have 7.01 instead of 7.11, but it’s still Mr Irrelevant, last pick in the draft.

[Hamlet]

I don’t see any inconsistency, although I admit I dont understand what you’re point is at all.

We trade. The trade is he gets two players, and I get his first pick. Cuts are made, then draft order figured. He has 5 picks, I have 4. He gives me his first pick, which we all knew was going to be 1.01. I make that pick, and the rest of my picks until my roster is full. He makes his assigned picks. All other picks are made. At that point, he has one extra spot on his roster, so he just takes an extra pick.

What am I missing?

[Spiritus_Mundi]

The current situation is certainly causing confusion - which is a good argument for simplification. I don’t like the proposed simplification for a couple of reasons, so I think that puts the onus on me to suggest the alternative. So here it is:

Trades during the off season can be executed asynchronously. That’s all.

So in our current example. Hamlet trades me Burrow and Schuster. That part executes before the draft. He cuts his roster to free another 2 slots and so generates 1,01, 1.11, 2.11, 3.11 (Or, if the bookkeeping is easier, receives 1.01 once I generate it.)
I cut my roster to 18 pre-trade, 20 after receiving Burrow + Schuster. But since I have traded 1.01 I generate 2.01, 3.01, 4.01, 5.01, 6.01. (Or, is the bookkeeping is easier I also generate 1.01 and then send it to hamlet

[EllisDee]

He’s arguing you don’t get 6.01. He’s saying you should get a makeup pick at the end of the draft, otherwise you’re jumping ahead of other people.

[Hamlet]

@Spiritus_Mundi

The current situation is certainly causing confusion - which is a good argument for simplification. I don’t like the proposed simplification for a couple of reasons, so I think that puts the onus on me to suggest the alternative. So here it is:

Trades during the off season can be executed asynchronously. That’s all.

So in our current example. Hamlet trades me Burrow and Schuster. That part executes before the draft. He cuts his roster to free another 2 slots and so generates 1,01, 1.11, 2.11, 3.11 (Or, if the bookkeeping is easier, receives 1.01 once I generate it.)
I cut my roster to 18 pre-trade, 20 after receiving Burrow + Schuster. But since I have traded 1.01 I generate 2.01, 3.01, 4.01, 5.01, 6.01. (Or, is the bookkeeping is easier I also generate 1.01 and then send it to hamlet

Is that what I’m missing? That Ellis believes the trade should only be executed after the draft starts?

[Justin_Bailey]

@Spiritus_Mundi

I don’t like the proposed simplification for a couple of reasons, so I think that puts the onus on me to suggest the alternative. So here it is:

Trades during the off season can be executed asynchronously. That’s all.

I proposed the same system in post 391.

[Hamlet]

@EllisDee

He’s arguing you don’t get 6.01. He’s saying you should get a makeup pick at the end of the draft, otherwise you’re jumping ahead of other people.

Just to be clear, I don’t much care either way. I’m just saying thats how my keeper league handles it.

[EllisDee]

@Hamlet

We trade. The trade is he gets two players, and I get his first pick. Cuts are made, then draft order figured.

The chronology is all weird. You trade before cuts means you trade before the picks exist. But the trade includes a pick, which doesn’t exist yet. We know what it’s going to be, but it doesn’t exist yet.

You then say that cuts are made after the trade. Cuts are what create picks, except one of them has already been pre-created by the trade. And while that pre-created pick counts for you as one of your four, you are also counting it against Spiritus as one of his five. So you give him the missing 5th pick as a makeup at the end of the draft.

So that one pick counts both for you and against him when it comes to actually creating picks with cutdowns. That’s double counting.

[Hamlet]

@EllisDee

The chronology is all weird. You trade before cuts means you trade before the picks exist. But the trade includes a pick, which doesn’t exist yet. We know what it’s going to be, but it doesn’t exist yet.

I didnt expect an dive into Existentialist theory during a fantasy football draft.

@Ellis Dee

You then say that cuts are made after the trade. Cuts are what create picks, except one of them has already been pre-created by the trade. And while that pre-created pick counts for you as one of your four, you are also counting it against Spiritus as one of his five. So you give him the missing 5th pick as a makeup at the end of the draft.

So that one pick counts both for you and against him when it comes to actually creating your picks with cutdowns. That’s double counting.

Cool. Then give him 6.01 if that’s the issue and everyone’s fine with it. But I still dont understand why my final pick went from 3.11 to 7.01.

[EllisDee]

@Hamlet

Just to be clear, I don’t much care either way. I’m just saying thats how my keeper league handles it.

Yeah, the core dispute I have is a minor detail. I’m just saying there’s a small logical flaw in your hypothetical, which could be easily corrected and would be almost exactly what you’re imagining.

How the league has always worked:

Spiritus: 2.01, 3.01, 4.01, 5.01, 6.01
Hamlet: 1.01, 1.11, 2.11, 7.01

How you’re saying you thought it worked:

Spiritus: 2.01, 3.01, 4.01, 5.01, (last pick)
Hamlet: 1.01, 1.11, 2.11, 3.11

I’m saying that’s not logically consistent. This inconsistency manifests itself in the form of having to vanish picks no longer needed and also create new ones after the draft. Fine when there’s only one trade to worry about, but could be an issue if multiple trades like this happen.

But with a minor tweak it would become logically consistent, as Spiritus posted:

Spiritus: 2.01, 3.01, 4.01, 5.01, 6.01
Hamlet: 1.01, 1.11, 2.11, 3.11

But again, that’s not how this league has ever worked. It is logically consistent, though, so I could be convinced to vote for adopting it starting next year. But really I’d be much more likely to vote for the April draft instead.

[Justin_Bailey]

@EllisDee

The chronology is all weird. You trade before cuts means you trade before the picks exist. But the trade includes a pick, which doesn’t exist yet. We know what it’s going to be, but it doesn’t exist yet.

But what if we didn’t create picks that way? We already know the draft order at the end of the previous season, so what if we gave everyone 25 picks and then they could they traded unevenly. Excess picks that aren’t filled by cuts would obviously be filled by keepers.

Coincidentally, this is how Yahoo does drafts.