Second Amendment: What does "well regulated" mean exactly?

If you don’t read Thomas’s entire concurrence please read the following excerpt for it explains how rights that are supposed to be original and fundamental and accepted as pre-existing the Constitution can fall between the cracks of federal protection.

[INDENT]"The meaning of §1’s next sentence has divided this Court for many years. That sentence begins with the command that “[n]o State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.” On its face, this appears to grant the persons just made United States citizens a certain collection of rights—i.e., privileges or immunities—attributable to that status.

This Court’s precedents accept that point, but define the relevant collection of rights quite narrowly. In the Slaughter-House Cases, 16 Wall. 36 (1873), decided just five years after the Fourteenth Amendment’s adoption, the Court interpreted this text, now known as the Privileges or Immunities Clause, for the first time. In a closely divided decision, the Court drew a sharp distinction between the privileges and immunities of state citizenship and those of federal citizenship, and held that the Privileges or Immunities Clause protected only the latter category of rights from state abridgment. Id., at 78. The Court defined that category to include only those rights “which owe their existence to the Federal government, its National character, its Constitution, or its laws.” Id., at 79. This arguably left open the possibility that certain individual rights enumerated in the Constitution could be considered privileges or immunities of federal citizenship. See ibid. (listing “[t]he right to peaceably assemble” and “the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus” as rights potentially protected by the Privileges or Immunities Clause). But the Court soon rejected that proposition, interpreting the Privileges or Immunities Clause even more narrowly in its later cases.

Chief among those cases is United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 (1876). There, the Court held that members of a white militia who had brutally murdered as many as 165 black Louisianians congregating outside a courthouse had not deprived the victims of their privileges as American citizens to peaceably assemble or to keep and bear arms. Ibid.; see L. Keith, The Colfax Massacre 109 (2008). According to the Court, the right to peaceably assemble codified in the First Amendment was not a privilege of United States citizenship because “[t]he right . . . existed long before the adoption of the Constitution.” 92 U. S., at 551 (emphasis added). Similarly, the Court held that the right to keep and bear arms was not a privilege of United States citizenship because it was not “in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence.” Id., at 553. In other words, the reason the Framers codified the right to bear arms in the Second Amendment—its nature as an inalienable right that pre-existed the Constitution’s adoption—was the very reason citizens could not enforce it against States through the Fourteenth.

That circular reasoning effectively has been the Court’s last word on the Privileges or Immunities Clause.[Footnote 1] In the intervening years, the Court has held that the Clause prevents state abridgment of only a handful of rights, such as the right to travel, see Saenz v. Roe, 526 U. S. 489, 503 (1999), that are not readily described as essential to liberty.

As a consequence of this Court’s marginalization of the Clause, litigants seeking federal protection of fundamental rights turned to the remainder of §1 in search of an alternative fount of such rights. They found one in a most curious place—that section’s command that every State guarantee “due process” to any person before depriving him of “life, liberty, or property.” [/INDENT]

Thanks. I started reading the opinion you linked then realized I needed to read up on the cases themselves first and have been working through it. I admit I find the ramifications and legal contortions of the results of this case elude me at the moment but still reading.

I will say I am no fan of Justice Thomas in any way, shape or form and rarely agree with him on anything. That said this might be different.

Still, this bit you quoted I have issue with:

“…the reason the Framers codified the right to bear arms in the Second Amendment—its nature as an inalienable right that pre-existed the Constitution’s adoption—…”

I remain mystified at the characterization that owning a gun is an “inalienable right”. That Thomas uses such language here immediately throws up a red flag for me and makes me wonder if the rest of it can be trusted (jury is still out for me in this particular instance…just saying I am dubious).

Perhaps it should be more broadly worded like “possess weapons” or “the state shall not disarm the people”. The broader principle is that the government should not reduce the populace to helplessness.

Welcome, fellow Destroyer of Liberty!

Well, as we have said previously “arms” is a broad category which encompasses any weapon.

Still, even then I have trouble characterizing a right to “arms” (as in weapons, not your limbs) as an “inalienable right” to be a bit of a stretch.

Why not the right to water?

Food?

Shelter?

They would all seem to trump arms as a necessity.

Indeed this is another reason I see the 2nd Amendment as not being a blanket right to have a weapon but rather in light of the militia part.

This is the only part of the constitution that guarantees a right to a “thing” (or item if you prefer). Seems odd given the character of the rest of the document for them to suggest that the one thing they wanted all Americans to have is a weapon because weapons are cool. Food and the other necessities of life…meh.

Personally? I’d phrase it more as “effective self-defense is the most basic right of a living being in general”. It’s not about specific items of technology, it’s about a fundamental building block of the (as the Declaration phrased it) rights to “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness”. Effective self-defense in general is a component of the first, and effective self-defense even against state-level actors is a component of the second.

So you’re going to have to explain to me how you can be so all-fired confident that your so-called rights aren’t subject to the opinion of the public AND how you’re all-fired convinced the courts are going to get away with taking them away.

Of course, it’s becoming a theme for you, being both unafraid of something happening and being worried or certain it’s going to happen.

I agree self-defense is an inalienable right.

“Effective” self defense I find a bit too broad. Therein lies an arms race. “Well, the other guy has a .22 so I need a .38 for effective defense!”

Where does it stop?

If the idea of the 2nd Amendment is to scare the state with a well armed populace then I would say the populace is woefully under-gunned against the military. We should all have access to bigger weapons than mere handguns and rifles.

Without the “effective” we’re back to pre-Heller conditions in US cities: Oh, you have a right to self-defense, but you don’t NEED a gun for self-defense so you can’t have one. Make do with a butterknife–you can defend yourself all you want with it (even if you fail, you had the right to try! Go you!)

I don’t honestly think the arms race is a problem, myself–the problem is not with the possession of weaponry of whatever destructive capability, but the illicit use of same. We’ve already been made painfully aware hundreds of times that no law prevents a determined crazy person from getting as much bomb as they require to make their point. Not to mention that mere possession of a larger-caliber weapon doesn’t imply more “effective self-defense” in any reasonable way, so your entire arms race kinda falls flat on those grounds.

Heh, I said that upthread–I am 100% sure that the founders would have expressly enshrined a right to guided rockets if they had glimpsed the world we lived it.

Inalienable rights is a concept focused on legitimacy; a person cannot legitimately confer to government the care and defense of his life, liberty or fruits of his labor. Inalienable rights also denotes legitimacy of action for government because no legitimate government would accept such a surrender if it were offered.

Inalienable rights is a concept of importance primarily at the genesis of the social compact when the fundamental, unalterable principles of that system are established and then, only in/under the type of government founded on the following principles:

[INDENT]a) all governmental power is derived from the people
b) there exist certain powers over one's self that are too important to ever be surrendered to another person (un/inalienable)
c) no legitimate government (one established to protect the rights of the people) would accept the surrender of those rights even if it was offered
d) government possesses only the limited powers specifically conferred (surrendered) to it, by the people
e) government only exercises those limited powers with the consent of the people and the people retain the right to rescind that consent.[/INDENT]

“Inalienable rights” are meaningless if a governing body is NOT being created to NOT surrender rights to . . .

Now we get to the nitty-gritty . . . One can of course judge the legitimacy of a government’s actions by how it treats the inalienable rights of the citizen.

The violation of inalienable rights is an action that de-legitimizes government – from then on it is no longer “the government established by the Constitution”, it is then a foreign entity disconnected from the Constitution and incapable of claiming its protections (the preemptive powers it enjoys over the states and people and the protections of the compact like prosecuting treason).

Such an illegitimate government is then subject to the original right of self defense of the people acting upon their right to rescind their consent to be governed . . . utilizing the means secured by the 2nd Amendment, the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005)

So you’re going to continue making my point for me, I see.

The question remains–what do you do when the vast, vast majority (that is, 95+%) somehow DOESN’T take up arms and storm the capitals over lost “inalienable rights”? You, personally.

Christ you are just getting pathetic now.

If I go looking will I find ^this^ point I have made for you in the same legal corner that NotSoBright has argued me into?

For someone who is so antagonistic to all things intangible you sure do rely on them for your debate points.

Well, at 5% I’m doing better than those who fought for independence from the British and currently, a group that is calling for [more or less] the restoration of a constitutionally legitimate government, . . . both are referred to as “Three Percenter’s”.

Aren’t “Three Percenters” an off-shoot of the 9-11 Truther movement?

Let me walk you through this slowly:

  1. The right to own property is as fundamental and important as the right to own firearms.
  2. Kelo vs. New London happened. Aspects of our right as citizens to own property unmolested by government was seriously diminished in a court of law.
  3. Nonetheless, no armed revolutionaries showed up. Life went on. Elections happened.

So now what?

And now I remember where I’d heard all these ridiculous arguments before!

The “three percenter” movement will validate itself when it actually gets off its tail and out of the rifle ranges and DOES something. Right now, y’all are collectively a bunch of parlor pinks, and all you do is make things worse for the people who are attempting to work with the system to preserve the system’s respect for our rights. You talk and you talk, and you rant and you rave, and the average voter treats any politician you attach yourselves to like a dead raccoon.

But who knows? Maybe you folks will do better than Davis and Lee–of course, they had a few more than 3%.

The only time I ever hear of 'em in is that context. If their grasp of military tactics is as strong as their grasp of structural and civil engineering, I have no doubt whatsoever that they’ll overthrow the corruption in D.C. and replace our shining city on a hill (with the original Constitution’s natural luminescence as the lighthouse beacon, natch) any minute now.

Aaaaaany minute now.

Inalienable rights are all very well, but for good or for ill the government secures our rights- or not. Right now we’ve evolved (or slid down the slippery slope) to a government that for the most part considers private arms an obstacle to safety and order. Reversing that is going to mean reforming the system from within, against the opposition of people who are perfectly happy with banning guns.

Slippery slope?

Do you need me to start citing gun violence numbers in the US compared to other first world democracies?

It is not a “slippery slope” to note that guns are indeed a blight and scourge on US society.

If you think owning a gun will protect you from jack-booted government thugs when they come to get you I suggest you read up on Ruby Ridge or the Waco siege. You can cause the government people some trouble but you WILL lose in the end no matter how many guns an no matter how much ammunition you have on hand. The powers that be will not give a shit that you managed to off a handful of their agents. Plenty more where they came from.

How about you go look at those numbers again, and how they don’t correlate in the slightest to guns-per-capita and DO correlate with income inequality and structural poverty.

The “blight and scourge on US society” is the fact that we have a lot of desperate people without a lot of money or education, and precious few prospects for getting more of either.

Oops.
Did I ask the wrong question?