I too was raised in a secular household, with heavy proselytizing from Jehovah’s Witness relatives and in a much milder form from Catholic relatives. While I didn’t end up becoming a Christian at all (thanks, Catholic high school), it did have a strong effect on me in odd ways. It’s not a problem most of the time, but it wasn’t a benign thing. My 2¢:
You and your spouse need to get together and decide whether you want other people talking to your child(ren) about religion. My parents opted out of the decision, not the best course.
Then you need to have a conversation with your parents and similar, and tell them not to initiate conversations on the subject. If that doesn’t work, the next step depends on how strongly you feel about it.
When my older daugher was in the lower elementary grades, she asked if she was allowed to read the Bible. (My husband is very firmly anti-religion.) I said sure you are, we have several. I gave her a copy of the New English Bible because it’s easier to understand for a young child. She was only a couple of pages into it when she started noticing contradictions. I told her the book was a collection of a lot of very old stories created by people who had no way of knowing the scientific explanation of things like why the sun really rises, so they used their imagination. We talked about how different people from different parts of the world each made up their own creation stories.
The kids were allowed to go to any church service they wanted to, with a friend or a grandparent, but they soon found the services to be not of interest.
This is the elephant in the room.
To many relatives and friends this isn’t just a difference in philosophies-they truly believe that your children will go to hell if they don’t believe, and their religious upbringing will not allow them to stand by and watch you condemn your children to eternal damnation. In cases such as these trying to keep a neutral viewpoint and letting your offspring decide on their own just won’t cut it, in my opinion.
Thanks to everyone for the responses. I’ve decided the best way to simply say “Yes, some people believe that, and some people believe this ___” when he tells me a biblical story.
I was once exactly like him, and was completely brainwashed. I did find my own way, but the whole experience left a sore spot on me (as you can tell by the OP). I’m annoyed that I was never given a choice, never told about another view, and never exposed to anything that might contradict what my parents said. I’m equally as annoyed at my own self for making it into my early twenties before starting to think for myself.
I won’t tell him he’s wrong or right, I’ll listen, and I’ll tell him my opinion when he asks.
As for the grandparents, one set I can talk to, one set I cannot. He is not my biological son, and his hereditary father’s parents are one of the problems. I’ve only met them once, and there’s already enough tension without me telling them to slow down the religious talk around him.
I’ve gone through this, successfully, for my two kids, both now adult atheists.
First, tell the grandparents to butt out about this. You have a right to raise your kid the way you want. My kids grandparents were mostly non-religious, so it was no issue for me.
I did more or less what MLS did - go through Genesis with them, and pointed out the contradictions, the parts that were clearly not true, and the absurdity. Teaching kids to think critically is the best training you can give them, with benefits far beyond believing or not believing in any religion.
I also let them go with friends to their churches for social activities. My youngest had lots of Mormon friends, had a good time at their dances, and concluded that they were all nuts. But I never said that believers were nuts, not until they were in college at least. And then just to agree with them.
I’ve enjoyed reading this thread, and it’s quite timely too. The topic is something that’s got me a bit steamed at the moment: suddenly realising that I’m trying to be neutral “in a non neutral society” (as Czarcasm put it) and that my son has by default been getting the (albeit fairly low key) message that god in the Christian sense is real.
Like CanTak3 I still consider myself technically agnostic because I can’t know… but as a Doper put it once in a poll on religion: I’m agnostic but an atheist with regards to any religion I’ve heard of.
NZ is both officially and unofficially pretty secular but we also have a much lower wall between church(es) and state than the US. My son’s (secular / state) school opens the day with a broadcast karakia – a Maori welcome / greeting. Now karakia can be actively religious (referencing god, Jesus, etc) or they can be more general… but when they have “amen” at the end it’s a fair bet which they are.
So my son who is going to school and learing facts and figures is getting a bit of religion mixed in and assuming that it too is real… and I’m not sure what to do.
To add a complication, my wife is a lapsed Methodist, who says she still believes… although is more than a little vague on exactly what she believes… about the most accurate I can discern is she’s a “Theist”. (Her family are generally more religious – her father’s a minister, well a retired one now).
So, a softly-softly approach is both required… and sits better with me anyway… but what to do? The suggestions in this thread are food for thought.
At the moment at least my son is getting interesting in mythology… Thor is his current favourite… so I’m thinking that teaching about lots of gods is a good antidote for a one-true-god. And at the worst I only disbelieve in one more god than my wife does.
So many of the posts here are advising people to tell relatives to “butt out” and “keep their mouths shut” about their beliefs.
If I were to do that with my future hypothetical offspring, I would never see or hear from my mother again, and my offspring would be short one whole side of the family.
Is it worth it to lose out on my mother and my whole family for the rest of my life (and all of my kid’s life) just because she’s a fundie and can’t keep her trap shut about Jesus?
I don’t think I can do that - I don’t have the guts to, and honestly, as much as she drives me batshit, she is my mother and I do love her. I can’t cut her off like that, and that’s exactly what it would be.
Do people think it’s possible to counteract that type of influence, or am I never going to be able to let my kids spend a weekend with Gramma?
Hmm. The only time this came up before he started day school was when one of his Christian friends said he was going to Hell. I said his friend was full of shit.
The rest? He just picked it up, I suppose. I didn’t say much one way or another. He does holidays and loves Passover, but it wasn’t until this year that he had a “God” concept. It’s fine with me. He knows I don’t believe there is a god (or really disbelieve, either) and we have no conflict. I figured it is his decision - to a point. I mean, he is in a Jewish household and I have an aversion to Christianity, but his opinions on the supernatural and metaphysical are his own.
The rules in the house are mom’s rules. So there’s none of that, “Oh, you just made baby Jesus cry” or “God does not like it when…” stuff.
I don’t want to go all OT here, but I find the Maori culture/s and history with NZ fascinating. So wouldn’t that be a ‘tie to the homeland’ type of thing (even if you aren’t Maori)?
I also get extremely turned on when I watch the ‘fight’ chant/song routine pre-rugby game. rawr.
Kiddos are smart. They know that Grandma’s house is not home and they’ll live. If your mom is ridiculous, then limit the alone contact if she can’t abide by your
rules. But if your mom says something you really don’t believe in, you need to be upfront with your kids. Don’t put them in the middle, but granny needs to understand that she is your parent, not theirs.
I thought about being neutral. Then my kid started talking and asking questions like, “What does it mean, ‘die?’” I remember that moment very clearly. And I had to decide if I was just going to tell her the truth to the best of my knowledge, or if I was going to launch into a big lecture on what some people believe, and what others believe, etc. She just wanted a fucking straight answer, not a sociological treatise. So I told her.
Since then, I’ve come to something more like this. She asked me the other day, “There aren’t really such things as gods, right?” and I said, “I certainly don’t think so, but you have to remember that a lot of people do, and they can take it very seriously, so we can’t make fun of them.”
BTW, she moved from some YMCA-induced vague god beliefs (I think Jesus lived way back with the dinosaurs, but was similarly gone from present-day eart) to that comment above in about 3 years, without any direct proselytizing by us. We have made an effort to expose her to different religious stories, even going so far as to create a nativity story book for her from a neutral point of view. I think that and general osmosis put her where she is now. She’ll probably get Jesus for some period as a young adult - hopefully if any of it sticks it will be of a liberal variety.
Oh, and per Dale McGowan, I’ve emphasized above all that we’ll accept her no matter what she believes, and she can change her mind as many times as she likes.
I will tell my daughter I believe there are no gods if she asks. If she chooses to believe different that’s her choice. I will not take her to churches and synagogues and temples so she has the chance to have one of those gods work their mighty magic on her, but if she ever asks to go with friends I’ll probably allow it, depending on the environment. She won’t go to any house of worship I feel will harm her, and that includes instilling fear. I would think any good parent would avoid causing that sort of pain for their children, but I know better.
Twenty years ago I was a Christian. I raised my oldest child a Christian and I’ve regretted it since the day I realized I had become completely atheist. I kept my mouth shut until she told me she was having doubts. I gave her all the information I could and let her decide but it was already set in her mind that if she doubted she’d burn in hell. She says she knows there are no gods, but she is afraid she is wrong and God will punish her. This breaks my heart because I know her struggle.
My youngest is six and already knows I meditate. She already knows about the Buddha through the e-book library at BuddhaNet and she’s learning mindfulness from me but I’m not pushing Buddhism on her, nor will I push atheism. She just asked about my Buddha statue I got from my oldest daughter so I used the opportunity to teach her. I figure I had to explain about the dead man on the cross outside a church this Easter; If I got through that discussion I can do anything!
I said his friend was full of shit.
