A short conversation I had with my oldest niece (11) about religeon.

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

Felt like sharing because, why not? It fits in these forums.

The conversation went something like this (I haven’t remembered it very accurately)…

Niece: “Do you go to church?”

Me: “No”

Niece: “Why not?”

At this point I was put on the spot and had to choose between honesty, and not upsetting my niece’s parentally imposed religiosity (her mother is quite religious and probably not very tolerant of contradictory viewpoints). I decided on honesty…

“Well, because I don’t believe in God”

Niece: “Why not??”

Me: “I just stopped believing. A lot of people don’t. As I grew older it started to make sense that God doesn’t exist”

I paused in thought, and then continued…

“It’s like santa-claus. Eventually you stop believing in him. It’s the same thing with God”

At this point I was shushed politely, because my youngest niece was in the back of the car, she evidently still believes in SC. I looked behind to check. She seemed to have been oblivious to the conversation taking place.

Niece: “God created the earth.” (said matter-of-factly)

Me: “Well no, the earth was formed millions of years ago”

Niece: “In the big bang?”

Me: “The universe was supposedly created in the big bang”

Me: “Do you go to church?”

Niece: “Yeah, we have to go every week with school”

Me: “Do you go at other times? Without school?”

Niece: “No”
This is where the conversation ended (I think I changed the subject to escape this uncomfortable line of questions)

My niece goes to the same Church of England school that I went to. It’s quite religous and now that I think back on it: none of the religiously themed asemblies or everything-elses meant anything to me… they were background noise. But I felt a sense of shock on realizing that all three of my nieces are being schooled in this religious environment. All three regularly sing religious songs for no apparent reason. The youngest was singing one when this thought occured to me.

After reading Dawkins’ The God Dellusion, particularly the bit where he’s shocked about the term ‘christian children’ and the fact that children are ‘brainwashed’ into a set of beliefs before they are old enough to make up their own minds.

2

My brother and his family are very religious, and he is always trying to convert me. Him and his wife always ask me pointed questions about things expecting a sudden realization that athiesm is wrong, when we’re alone. They never discuss it in front of their kids. They just don’t seem to want to expose them to other ideas (they are home schooled). I have no idea what they’ve told their kids about me, and I have a feeling that discussing it with them would be be bad.

The problem is, they became uber religious shortly after something really really bad happened to the girls. All of a sudden Jebus was the way and anyone who thought different had to be wrong. Prior to this my brother was anything but religious. Now they push religion as the answer to all my problems. I’m all for peace of mind, especially after what happened, but it’s so aggravating to hear them tell me that god will solve all my problems when they’re still dealing with past events that their god could have stopped, and supposedly caused. I can’t shove this in their face or anything as a counterargument, it was just that bad. But damn it’s irritating. I have a feeling it isn’t going to be easy for his kids when they face their world on their own.

3

I’m not religious (though I have made a couple of runs at it, for those of you who may recall my one-time desire to convert to Judaism), and I’m certainly not looking to start a fight, but was that quite fair to the child’s parents? I’m not suggesting that you lie to the child about your personal beliefs, but that Santa Claus line makes it sound as if giving up on a belief in God is an inevitable part of growing up, which it manifestly is not.

4

Maybe it is unfair, but that wasn’t my intention. My intention was to explain it in terms that an eleven year old would understand.

(A particularly intelligent eleven year old who certainly doesn’t believe in Santa Claus)

As I said I was put on the spot and I have a tradition of being honest with my nieces. I don’t believe in lying to them to escape awkward questions.

5

But the parents have the right to raise their children in a way they feel is responsible. You yourself are a testament to how a religious upbringing may or may not insure a lifelong belief. Do you believe the children are actually being permanently harmed?

6

Of course they do. That doesn’t stop me feeling negatively about it. I don’t actively try to dereligionize my nieces, and this one-time situation was itself ended and the subject changed. I want my nieces (the closest things I have to offspring of my own) to make up their own minds. Unfortunately that means hating the making up of their minds by other people that is happening at their school. Their parents are probably doing very little of it (probably the mother confirms what the school tells them, little more than that)

In answer to your question: It’s hard not to think the children are at risk of future harm. Any form of blind faith is potentially harmful.

I am an exception to the rule of religious upbringings. I was never loyal enough to my schools to pay much attention to their teachings. And my own family was never particularly religious (and therefore the male parent of my nieces isn’t particularly religious either)

7

I think this depends on the response of your niece’s religion instructor if your niece brings up the subject of her atheist uncle. There are different ways of handling this, some better than others. If she starts off her next conversation with you by telling you that you are going to hell, that’s not a good sign.

8

I don’t think that religion per se is harmful to kids, but Dawkins did relate the testimony of some who were scared to death of Hellfire, and who carried that fear well into adulthood. I myself was a bit creeped out by the thought of a grand punisher watching my every move.

9

The first time this really struck home with me was reading an article a little while ago about an atheist family that was (allegedly) ostracized and persecuted for their beliefs. The article mentioned one of their children, and said “so-and-so was born an atheist.”

I thought: No shit. We’re all born atheists. It’s absurd to apply a particular religion to a child, but it’s even more absurd to apply the lack of one.

10

Oh. For. God’s. Sakes.

I am sick to death of people bleating on about ‘brainwashing’ children. How, exactly, is it that nothing else a kid is taught constitutes ‘brainwashing’ except religion? You teach kids stuff when they’re young. You also teach them to think critically. If they are too stupid to learn to think critically, too bad. If, thinking critically, they decide to accept religion - or not, then the job’s done.

It’s just ludicrous to keep on with this ‘brainwashing’ myth. Stop it.

11

I don’t know how much of an exception you are. I didn’t have strong beliefs, but I kinda sorta had some. I would have coasted along like that forever if something hadn’t pushed me over the edge (I married an atheist). So I wonder how many people are just coasting along like that, not believing really but not bothering to think about it that much.

12

I used ‘brainwashed’ for lack of a better word, and I put it in quotes to hopefully indicate that the word had been used to substitute for a more accurate word.
But to answer your question: Most things taught to children do not constitute brainwashing in the commonly known sense of the word because they are facts backed up by evidence and put to experiments and tests. I see no danger in teaching a child scientific things. I see danger in teaching them that “ours is the one true religion, and all other’s are condemmed to hell, and you should actively try to spread our message” Sorry but I do see much of fundemental religious teaching as brainwashing, and all of scientific teaching as not brainwashing.

And if a science teacher is a good one He will try to instill a sense of questioning in the kids he’s teaching. He (or she) should be glad if a student isn’t convinced by their teachings or questions it.

13

Well. Some. People. Don’t. Teach. Their. Kids. To. Think. Critically. Either. And. Maybe. That. Is. Part. Of. What. People. Are. Talking. About. When. They. Bring. Up. Brainwashing.

Just a thought.

14

**Quiddity ** - I did write out a brief post disagreeing with you, but it eventually got too boring and debate-y for MPSIMS. Would you like to start a GD thread?

15

I suspect this one will get moved there or somewhere else eventually.

To the thread readers and repliers… Assuming I left out the comparrison with Santa Claus, could I have handled the situation any differently? (without compromising honesty)

16

I would have said something more like, “For me it was like Santa Claus, I came to the conclusion that he didn’t exist.” That makes it about your opinion instead of sounding like a blanket statement.

17

By these lights any sort of ethical or behavioural teaching one does to very young children, not strictly concerned with scientific truths, would count as “brainwashing”. The better, less - shall we say - controversial term I’d use is “socialization into the parent’s belief system”.

To my mind, the danger is not in socializing one’s child into one’s own belief system - that is simply an inevitable part of the parent-child relationship, and anyone who claims they are not doing it is simply mistaken. The problem is when children start questioning those beliefs. How parents or other adults react can be constructive - allowing them to explore alternatives - or harmful - crushing questioning with sarcasm or abuse. This, quite irrespective of the truth or otherwise of those beliefs.

I’m not a believer in any gods, but I think basically calling such belief childish in response to a child’s questions (‘like a belief in Santa Claus’) falls on the “sarcasm” side of that line.

18

I phrase things in the personal: “I don’t believe…” “My opinion is…” “I came to the conclusion that…” when dealing with children’s questions. That way, to me at least, I’m not subverting the parent’s wishes but am still being honest.

19

Sure. There are lots of ways, from, “Well, I’m not comfortable having a religious discussion. Religion is something your parents sort of control for you right now, so you need to ask them these questions. Sorry.” to “There are so many ideas about how the world began and who god is and what it all means. You just have to figure these things out in time. And it’s okay to change your mind, most people do at some point. Some don’t. How do *you *think the world started?” to “I am an atheist, so I don’t go to church. When you get older, you can decide whether or not you want to go to church.”

*Should *you have handled the situation differently? Eh…probably not. You’re her uncle, you have a relationship with her as individuals, and we’re not really in a position to put words into your mouth.

The Santa line was the only one that made me cringe, however. I’d be a little irritated by that, but that’s probably because I’m just generally irritated by atheist’s use of Santa Claus to “prove” the nonexistence of God. I think it’s a theologically shitty argument, but one that easily tricks weak minds.

20

I think it’s more important to teach children the difference between facts and truths vs. beliefs and faith.
It’s not wrong to have beliefs and faith but they need to know that they are just that. They can’t be “right” or “wrong”. They’re like preferences and they’re very personal.

I explained it to my nephews as religion is like ice cream. Some people think chocolate is the best. Some people think strawberry is the best. Some people don’t like ice cream at all. Are any of them right or wrong? No. It’s just what they prefer.
And if your parents like chocolate, and all they ever gave you growing up was chocolate, and they told you chocolate was the best, your probably going to grow up liking chocolate, right? But do you think it’s fair if they never let you try strawberry? What if you didn’t like ice cream at all but they still made you eat it? Would that be fair? And maybe you try a bunch of other flavors and decide vanilla is best, or try no ice cream at all, or decide for yourself that chocolate is still the best for you? Well then so be it.
Everyone needs to explore and question things themselves to figure out what they believe. People can tell you what they believe but they should never tell you these things are truths or facts nor should they force these beliefs on you. And you shouldn’t do it to them either.

(Now go play and leave me alone!)