I believe your motives were excellent, and your desire to help someone in trouble is laudable indeed. We’d be a sorry lot indeed if noble impulses did not shine through.
But I can’t help but think you’re missing the main point of the firestorm.
The issue is whether, as a reader, I’m entitled to know other relevant information about the situation before deciding whether or not to help. Billdo had such relevant information; it seems to me we’re being told that in the future, he shouldn’t post it.
A reductio ad absurdum example: a plea for help for a convicted child molestor, recently released from prison, is characterized as: “He’s broke and homeless. He has no job, no assets to fall back on, nothing. He’s starting nearly from nothing but what he stands up in. This is, as are most of the problems we encounter in life, by his own making. Doesn’t make them any less by that. He’s had some serious errors of judgment and some bad luck to boot.”
All of that is true – and, indeed, I could argue that such a person NEEDS help.
But at the same time, someone offering such an individual a place to stay would deserve to know the rest of the story, especially if that home had children.
To forestall the inevitable outrage: obviously, mooching shamelessly is far, far removed from my hypothetical example. I am saying that, as a general rule, it is more fair and more honest to permit individuals to share their experiences when such experiences are relevant to the decision about how and when to help a seemingly deserving indivdual.
You may wish to consider adding an additional disclaimer if you make another such appeal in the future, since as kung fu lola’s post on page 1 of that thread makes clear, many members do consider your stamp of approval to carry more weight than that of an ordinary member.
Wasn’t directed at Billdo. He did what he felt was the righteous thing to do under the circumstances. That’s directed at all the other comments that add heat but not light.
You are most certainly entitled to your opinion and that includes your opinion of a person or a situation; however, where help is solicited for someone, calling them everything short of a child of God, how useful is that?
If you don’t want to help, don’t. If you think they’re the scum of the earth, how can telling them so make anything any better? That’s kicking someone when they’re down.
Wasn’t my “stamp of approval,” I was just saying, as any member, which I DID, I think, attempt to make clear.
Some do think I have no right to make personal postings anyway. It’s okay for me to work on your behalf, but not to be a participating member otherwise. I don’t know what to do about that.
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No, that’s not what we’re saying.
Billdo did nothing wrong in posting his information. Cajun Man’s warning was in response to the heat that response the information was receiving in MPSIMS; it was getting close to that “inappropriate for the forum” line.
Would it have been better if we had had more information in email before all this exploded on the board? You bet. But we didn’t. We prefer to handle situations that arise in ways that are less bruising than what we’ve been through in the last few days. But that’s not what happened and now we’re trying to make the best of it, not only for now but in future.
I posted with what I knew, unsolicited by anyone or anything except my desire to help out a fellow Doper. Billdo posted what he knew in the interests of helping out fellow Dopers. And everyone else who has had a legitimate question or comment to further this along has also had the best interests of everyone here at heart. None of this is inherently bad.
Cajun Man posted a general warning as to the tone things were taking in a forum where fiery rhetoric is not accepted behavior. He was doing his job.
your humble TubaDiva
Administrator
This is a posting in an official capacity, in case you were in doubt.
To be honest, I don’t think you did make it absolutely clear. Simply leaving off the sig is not enough, IMO. Many–hopefully, most–of us are able to read a post like yours and understand that you were making the appeal as a member, and I don’t think it’s at all inappropriate for you or any of the staff to post as members, but I do think you’re being obtuse if you don’t realize that many members see the title underneath your name and give it more weight. It’s just human nature that some people view people in “authority” as being somehow not regular folks, and have trouble making out the line between official and unofficial actions. I’m not suggesting you make any extraordinary effort, just a brief “This is me posting strictly as a member” statement would suffice.
And as far as the “stamp of approval” goes, like it or not, if you or anyone make a request for help on behalf of another member, it is only logical that it would be assumed that you are vouching for that person in some respect.
I’m with Geobabe. I would never have grasped the connection between your lack of sig and your posting as a mere member. And I would suspect that most people probably wouldn’t as well, unless for that one post your title read “Member” instead of “Administrator.”
Don’t forget the other facts provided by Pucette, including the fact that he quit his job, mailed all of his possessions and moved to another country to marry someone he never met IRL, and that prior to moving, he was living in NYC with relatives. These raise issues concerning the “need” to be addressed as well as whether one would want to provide help, considering the circumstances leading to the alleged need.
Her comments may have provided heat, but they added a significant amount of light as well.
**I am not writing this as an adminstrator, but as someone who is imparting some information that I know personally. Nothing is to be implied from this except as sharing information. This is not a management or adminstrative posting. **
Actually, he did not quit his job; his job quit him. If it had been up to him, he would never have left their employ. He was a temp employee being slotted into a permanent position; they decided to go in another direction with the permanent gig and combined it with another job. The combo job was one he was not qualified for and he didn’t get it. The temp position ended when they hired the combo job.
And he was living with his mother, which is not unusual for a lot of people in their early 20s and especially in the greater NYC area or anywhere else the living is not easy at all. Which these days is damn near everywhere.
He was at loose ends, his mother was sick of having him underfoot, his gf said to him, “I love you, move here, let’s get married.” Having nothing else better to do and really being in love, that’s what he went for. It didn’t work out.
Now, all of you older folk, you can shake your head at this; guess you were never young and in love. Nice to know some of you have led perfect lives and the course of true love and everything else has gone so smoothly for you and that all of your decisions were well made and executed. Let me know how that feels sometime, please; I’ve never met a perfect person in my entire life and that includes my most imperfect self.
**All statements made as a poster on the Straight Dope Message Board. This is no way a management or administrative posting and is not to be taken as such. **
TubaDiva and TVeblen, I applaud you for taking the time to give a thoughtful, reasonable, intelligent and thorough response to this situation. For me, I think you’ve answered every question and clarified some gray areas. I wish this were done by Moderators and Administrators more often, and I thank you profoundly for doing so here. BRAVO!
And on another note, Jenny, I think what you did was a wonderful, warm thing. Please don’t ever stop doing it. (And I hope by hashing this out here as we’ve done we’ll be able to do it for other people in the future should the need arise.)
He lied about his having been fired to others, claiming he had quit, which isn’t terribly surprising but is still schmuckish all the same. I’m sure I’d disagree with your definition of “longstanding.” Just last month, he was still proving to a mooch by laughing about how great wedding plans are when you don’t have to pay for anything. And given the fact that he is a NY native, I’m sure he has friends who’d put him up the second he got back, unless he burned a hell of a lot more bridges than you know.
Oddly enough, THIS ISN’T THE PROBLEM. In case it wasn’t clear, the point of this thread has evolved into considering the dangers of posting such threads in GENERAL. And I still feel like that point was brushed over in your reply.
I say this with the greatest respect: You do a good job of explaining your actions, and it’s clear your motives were pure – I don’t think anyone thinks they weren’t – and then you add something like this that makes it sound like those of us who did not think your suggestion was “100% Brilliant Idea, No Additives Included” are heartless prisses who think we’re perfect and shouldn’t help anyone who’s ever made a mistake, which of course we never have. It’s a backhanded insult at those who disagree with you, and it’s not well done of you.
Nobody claimed to be perfect. No one said they’d never had love go south, or that they’ve never made a bad decision. Re-read BRICKER’s post, where he explains, using an extreme example that has nothing to do with MONKEYMULE, that you can understand that someone has screwed up and needs help and still decide that reason exists not to help the person. I am NOT saying that people should not help MM. Nor did BRICKER say that, nor did BILLDO say that. I’m saying that we have reason to want to be fully informed about what we’re being asked to do. Please tell me that you understand this, and that you don’t really think we’re all being meanspirited and small-hearted, as your “must be nice to be perfect” tone indicates you think we are being.
My thoughts exactly as Esprix stated. I’d like to especially point out that we, as members, understand that the Administration staff is human, too, and seeing the occassional “My bad, and left me explain…” does more to earn our, at least my, respect of your position than the oft-seen “circling of the wagons.”
Anyhow, I certainly appreciate the calls for clarification and the well tempered responses. The not-so-tempered ones, well, sometimes you’ll have that too, I guess, but it seems that this matter is mostly resolved, so… yeah.
The following posting is personal in nature and is not meant to be taken as an administrative or management statement on The Straight Dope Message Board.
He wasn’t fired. It was a temporary job, the job ended.
As for what he said, he really is an idjit, isn’t he? “Pride goeth before a fall” has never been more true than now. Less painful to say, “I QUIT!” rather than “I didn’t get the job.” No less a stupid thing to do.
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I don’t think you’re being meanspirited.
I’ve never said the access to information should be blocked or restricted; just the contrary.
People make mistakes all the time. Some make great big whopper mistakes and screw up by the numbers and get in monumental messes because of it. Hopefully those that land in this world of hurt find their way through their problems caused by themselves, come out on the other side, and do better.
Sometimes other people can help them find their way out.
What aggravates me is this: It is very easy to see such bad behavior and be judgmental, to be critical, to find fault, especially where there is so much fault to find. Why does slamming them seem to be the thing to do on TOP of all their other distress? Mostly people know when they’ve screwed up and they are neither happy nor proud about it.
Most of us have the errors of youth to remember; I have my share and probably someone else’s too. I have had many things in my life that I would most certainly do differently now from what I said and did THEN. “Young and foolish” is more than a song title. Perhaps that makes me more likely to be more forgiving of others when they’ve put themselves in the kack.
Again, this is not an excuse (there’s no excuse for bad behavior), but it is, I believe, a reason.
To reiterate:
I always want people to have as much information as necessary for any decision-making, whatever that might be. I certainly make better decisions my own self when I am in possession of all the facts. I would never want to deny anyone on this board or anywhere else access to all the critical data they need.
And I am frustrated because I hate to see anyone suffer, even if they have brought said suffering on themselves. If in that frustration I have said some things in temper, I apologize.
your humble TubaDiva
The posting you have just seen is personal in nature and is not meant to be taken as an administrative or management statement on The Straight Dope Message Board.
After wading through this mess of a thread, I’d just say that, (IMO) yes, we should be able to help people - but at least provide us with enough information so that those of us that want to help can make an infomed decision. We didn’t get all the details at first.
You posted a request to treat someone generously; Bill pointed out how his mileage had varied with that person. Various readers decided to find you or Bill persuasive.
It seems to me that Bill got told, in essense, that he was out of line for disagreeing with your assessment of the situation in MPSIMS. I don’t think anyone here, including you, has done anything terribly wrong, and I’m not really sure what your remaining issues are. I certainly don’t see where anyone has implied that we should never do anything, ever, and I don’t see why you’re trying to build that particular strawman.
Well, considering the DANGERS . . . wanted to be sure that was covered. Any time there are concerns, that’s not a strawman, that’s a legitimate issue and I hope to answer to those concerns as necessary.
And no, Billdo was not out of line. How many times do I have to say that? He brought what he considered important information to the table.
It’s possible to disagree with me. I’ve even been known to be . . . mistaken. Maybe if I had a pointy hat like the Pope I’d be infallible, but that’s not part of my wardrobe. (Just as well, I look weird in hats.)
It’s also not a me versus Billdo issue; we had different experiences of the same person. I have no problem with him. Or with anyone right now, really.
I do not mean to sound unduly cynical, but from what I’ve seen of the Dope, any apology is taken as a sign of weakness, is long remembered, and is generally the signal for an all-out attack on the apologiser. Dopers have a very long remembrance for mistakes, weakness and screw-ups. Frex, such a relatively insignificant thing as not chipping in for a hamburger at a communal eat-out can be remembered for months or years and can be used against one when one needs help or advice at a later date. I hear.
Sometimes that’s the case. When I apologized to Lynn, she never acknowledged it, and one or two posters brought up the incident long after it had transpired as evidence that I was about to melt down. Be all that as it may, I thought and still think that an apology was the right thing to do.
Also, sometimes, I think that people come away from the exact same event with two very different perceptions. From a couple of conversations with TubaDiva, I thought she hated me and had written me out of her life altogether — and this at a time when I most needed support and kindness. Lo and behold, in the course of contacting her recently for a board-related issue (changing my user name), she responded graciously and familiarly, asking about my family and so forth. There was never an apology, and she probably had no idea how her precious remarks had affected me. You just never know what people are thinking.
You forgot about the part where, upon being called on it, the person who made such a mistake (and to clarify, it was a burger and several beers, and it was not a “communal eat-out”, but rather a gathering at a bar) didn’t bother to apologize. Had there been an apology at that time, this entire controversy would not have happened.
(And I hope by hashing this out here as we’ve done we’ll be able to do it for other people in the future should the need arise.)