Selective Magnet School in Virginia moving towards a lottery system

[damuriajashi]

@Ruken

I’ve been trying to find this information, if you could direct me to it.

I was looking at the most recently available admissions data from the class of 2022

Thomas Jefferson Admissions Information

@slash2k

Merit simply means being particularly good or worthy of praise, so the question is “praise for what?”, “good at what?”. What, EXACTLY, are you measuring? Intellectual ability, mathematical aptitude, prior achievement, willingness to work hard, etc., are all measurable, but they are not necessarily congruent.

Academic merit.

@slash2k

So if you think the current criteria aren’t doing a good job at selecting the right students, why are you defending them so vigorously?

I don’t demand perfection or that things be exactly the way i would like. I support the current system over the proposed system because the proposed alternative is a disaster.
I didn’t think hillary was a particularly good candidate but I still defended her because the alternative was horrible. If they made me king, the process would be different.

@slash2k

You don’t (or shouldn’t) want selectivity for the sake of being the most selective school; you want selectivity towards some goal. You want to select the people most likely to do X or Y or Z. It sounds, in your case, that you want the students most likely to push themselves and their compatriots to learn the most. So, what measures and scores will help you find those people?

The current system is more academically selective than the proposed system.

@slash2k

There are other types and personalities and factors at play as well; are you willing to exclude everybody who doesn’t conform to a particular kind of student, regardless of their innate “merit”?

Yes. If you want a school that accepts kids that measures merit by some of ther metric then start one of those schools. Start a school that measures kids by how bored they are or stuff that they cannot demonstrate on tests or whatever metric you want to use. Don’t destroy one of the best high schools in america to conduct social experiments.

@slash2k

Perhaps I am reacting in part to remarks like this.

This is not a school for honor students. The kids from Loudon County aren’t riding the bus for over an hour to hang out with other honor students. Just about every school in the area has a critical mass of honor students. Enough to support the typical honor student.

@slash2k

Should a student who came from a school or district where that was the norm even be able to apply to a highly-selective school such as TJHSST?

They all come from the same school district 9some come from arlington. falls church and loudon but those are wealthier surrounding suburbs.

@RitterSport

Anyway, if you can’t even things up at birth, then maybe this is a small step towards equality of outcome, right?

Sure, if equality of outcome supersedes, fairness and equity and merit.

@DemonTree

and the
main result will be to make the school whiter.

Not exactly, the main result will be a lot fewer asians, their spots will be split between b;lacks, hispanics and whites with the plurality of seats going to whites.

@DemonTree

This makes such a difference.

And selecting them by lottery is kind of stupid.

@iiandyiiii

It’s a flawed solution to an even more flawed problem. This is better than the status quo, but still far from perfect. I’m for it because it’s improvement, but I’d support a solution that increased black/Hispanic enrollment without increasing white enrollment even more, most likely.

That sounds a lot like you might be suffering from white guilt and the white guilt is so unbearable you are willing to force asians to pay the price to alleviate your white guilt.

@iiandyiiii

Not sure what you’re getting at here. Here in Virginia, “normal” for over a century has been black students get shit. We should be trying to correct this. This particular solution is flawed, but still better than nothing.

It depends on whose ox is getting gored to conduct your social experiment. This wouldn’t be happening if the price of “equality of outcome” was being borne by white kids. This is only politically possible because white families are getting something out of it too. All at the expense of the asian families.

@iiandyiiii

No, I want black and Hispanic kids to have a fair shot at the best schools and the best opportunities. That’s not happening now. This is a slight step in the right direction.

In what way do hispanics have less of a shot at the best schools than asian kids? Do they give hispanic kids harder versions of the test? Are they being discriminated against in the admissions process? They have the same shot as the immigrant asian kid, you just don’t like the results.

[RitterSport]

@damuriajashi

Sure, if equality of outcome supersedes, fairness and equity and merit.

You’re right, I meant to write “equality of opportunity”, which is what I wrote earlier. Sorry for the confusion.

[damuriajashi]

@RitterSport

You’re right, I meant to write “equality of opportunity”, which is what I wrote earlier. Sorry for the confusion.

I think there are several schools of thought on the whole equality of opportunity from birth. Just taking race out of the picture for a moment, is it fair that some children are destined to be better looking than others? Is it fair that some children are born smarter than others? Is it fair that some children are born destined to be taller or stronger or faster than others? Is it fair that some children are born to families or cultures that have higher academic expectations than others?

How much of this should government and society correct for? In the past the notion that government should correct for differences in effort (due in part or entirely to differences in culture) was unimaginable but things change. How much of this is equalizing opportunity and how much of it is a stubborn refusal to admit that equality of opportunity doesn’t translate to equality of outcome, especially when this is combined with inequality in effort.

[slash2k]

@Ruken

First, your personal experience is (always) irrelevant and your point is moot because the feeder districts to TJ offer algebra starting in 7th grade. Second, Calc 1 and 2 are widely available at other schools.

And every child who might be a candidate for TJHSST always attended one of those feeder districts for their entire career, right? You are certain there’s never a student who transferred in as a 7th grader who didn’t have the prep to take algebra 1 that year? Nobody was routed into lower-level classes because the teacher didn’t like them or that particular school couldn’t get an algebra teacher that year or the algebra classes were already full or any of a dozen other reasons?

Oh, wait, you don’t know these things.

@damuriajashi

Academic merit.

Academic merit BY WHAT DEFINITION? Academic merit by itself is meaningless. Try defining what you mean by the term (without using the word ‘merit’). GPA is one potential measure, but not the only one; mathematical aptitude as measured on a standardized test is another measure. Which one(s) are most important to success at TJHSST?

If you can’t even decide what sort of academic merit you’re looking for, you can’t know how to measure it most effectively, or know whether you’ve gotten the most meritorious kids or not.

@damuriajashi

I don’t demand perfection or that things be exactly the way i would like. I support the current system over the proposed system because the proposed alternative is a disaster.

Thus far, you haven’t even been able to articulate what metric are most relevant for success at TJHSST, so on what basis do you conclude that the proposed alternative is or would be a disaster? For example, do the students admitted under the current system with GPAs under 4.0 have worse outcomes (lower graduation rates, higher rates of dropout/transfer back to another school, worse disciplinary records, etc.) than students with a 4.0? If they do, then GPA may be a predictor of success, but if they don’t, then having a perfect GPA isn’t shown to confer any advantage. So, what’s your evidence?

@damuriajashi

The current system is more academically selective than the proposed system.

Again, does being more academically selective by certain measures actually translate to better outcomes, or are you measuring something irrelevant?

@damuriajashi

If you want a school that accepts kids that measures merit by some of ther metric then start one of those schools

Ah, so you are beginning to grasp that some of these other kids actually HAVE “merit” or “academic merit” as measured by a different metric. So, what metric(s) best correlate with the goals you have set for success at TJHSST? “I want the students with the highest GPAs” may be equivalent to “I want the students most likely to benefit from the opportunities at this school,” but you have not yet shown this to be the case; you’re just guessing.

@damuriajashi

In what way do hispanics have less of a shot at the best schools than asian kids?

Hispanic students are likely to be of lower socioeconomic status than white (or Asian) kids, and schools with large numbers of such students tend to have teachers who have less experience and fewer credentials than schools populated primarily be kids from wealthier families. While Loudoun and Fairfax counties are among the wealthiest in the nation, there are census tracts even there that are not wealthy, and those tracts tend to be disproportionately minority. Now, do you think having more experienced teachers can make a difference, or are teachers simply interchangeable?

Hispanic students are more likely to have parents with limited English proficiency, which has a number of burdens but perhaps most relevantly translates to parents who are less likely to be vocal and effective advocates if the school assigns the student to a poor teacher. White teachers tend to expect less from minority students (one cite), which can turn into self-fulfilling prophecies by communicating that the students are destined to fail or by devoting fewer resources into teaching them (or both).

[DemonTree]

@iiandyiiii

No, I want black and Hispanic kids to have a fair shot at the best schools and the best opportunities. That’s not happening now. This is a slight step in the right direction.

They have the same shot under the current system as anyone else. The fact not many pass the test indicates the problem lies earlier on, it’s the schools for younger kids you should be looking at reforming. A test is a fairer system than looking at grades in any case.

@damuriajashi

It depends on whose ox is getting gored to conduct your social experiment. This wouldn’t be happening if the price of “equality of outcome” was being borne by white kids. This is only politically possible because white families are getting something out of it too. All at the expense of the asian families.

Now I understand. White people get to feel good about helping X minority without their own children having to pay any of the cost of the social engineering. How cynical.

@damuriajashi

How much of this should government and society correct for? In the past the notion that government should correct for differences in effort (due in part or entirely to differences in culture) was unimaginable but things change. How much of this is equalizing opportunity and how much of it is a stubborn refusal to admit that equality of opportunity doesn’t translate to equality of outcome, especially when this is combined with inequality in effort.

Yeah. Government should try to correct for external differences, but it can’t correct for internal ones (eg effort) and shouldn’t try. Penalising students who’ve worked hard to help those who haven’t is unfair, and a great way to lower quality over all.

I dont know why it’s so hard to believe culture makes a difference. Here in the UK Asians are over represented in professions like doctor and lawyer, because those are especially highly valued in their culture. Plus there’s the attitude that a well paying job is more important than a fulfilling one. It seems daft to think a culture’s attitude towards education and ambition makes no difference to how hard kids work in school.

[iiandyiiii]

@DemonTree

They have the same shot under the current system as anyone else. The fact not many pass the test indicates the problem lies earlier on, it’s the schools for younger kids you should be looking at reforming. A test is a fairer system than looking at grades in any case.

How the hell would you know?

What a joke. Some folks are content with unequal opportunities for black and Hispanic kids. I’m not. That’s the difference.

[DemonTree]

@iiandyiiii

How the hell would you know?

Grades are influenced by teachers, who according to studies suffer unconscious biases. A test is more objective and you can hide the student’s details including race and sex from the marker to prevent bias.

@iiandyiiii

What a joke. Some folks are content with unequal opportunities for black and Hispanic kids. I’m not. That’s the difference.

How generous you are, trying to help them at someone else’s expense.

[iiandyiiii]

@DemonTree

Grades are influenced by teachers, who according to studies suffer unconscious biases. A test is more objective and you can hide the student’s details including race and sex from the marker to prevent bias.

True or not, this doesn’t remotely suggest that opportunities are equal.

How generous you are, trying to help them at someone else’s expense.

This flawed solution is better than nothing.

[RitterSport]

@damuriajashi

How much of this should government and society correct for?

I don’t know. Obviously, the government can’t do anything about someone’s looks. But, in the areas where it can help, I think it should endeavor to do so. Magnet high school admissions is one area where it can help level the playing field among highly intelligent, highly motivated students, regardless of their background. As I’ve said repeatedly, just applying, being willing to do the longer commute, leaving your friends behind, and knowing that the workload will be difficult all indicate that these kids are very motivated compared to their high school peers.

I know you’re a big fan of equality of opportunity based on your other posts – what are your thoughts?

[DemonTree]

@iiandyiiii

This flawed solution is better than nothing.

Helping one minority at the expense of another is an obviously bad solution!

I just saw this on the CRT thread:

Coalition for TJ #FightingForMerit

Why the hell is a teacher talking about parents helping their kids succeed like it’s a bad thing? This sounds racist as fuck, as well as wrongheaded, and yet people are supporting it.

[DemonTree]

@RitterSport

Obviously, the government can’t do anything about someone’s looks.

Ever heard of cosmetic surgery? Ugly people are discriminated against too, so why isn’t there free plastic surgery to level the playing field? Or at least free dental treatment and laser eye surgery.

[RitterSport]

I feel like this isn’t a serious argument you’re putting forth, but I’m fine with free dental treatment as part of a comprehensive medical plan. You might be able to talk me into vision correction surgery, as well.

Anyway, I think you’ve lost the thread of this little sub-debate. Kearsen1 is the one who says that high school is too late and we have to start working towards equality of opportunity at birth. I asked him how to accomplish that and he said you can’t, so I’m not sure why he said it in the first place. I said that the government could do a little thing about equality of opportunity by making magnet schools more accessible to everyone who is motivated and smart.

damuriajashi claims to be a fan of equality of opportunity, and I put the question to him, whether this moves the needle a little further in that direction. I don’t think he’s responded to that, but his responses tend to be VERY long, so I don’t always read every word.

I’m not all that interested in pursuing all the ways that the government could pursue equality of opportunity, so I won’t be responding further to that. If you want to start a thread about whether the government should provide plastic surgery and laser eye surgery in order to pursue equality of opportunity, have at it.

[iiandyiiii]

@DemonTree

Helping one minority at the expense of another is an obviously bad solution!

Still better, and less racist, than the status quo.

[urbanredneck2]

I think if a high school is large enough, say 1200 students, they will have enough students (ex. 100 of those 1200) so they can support an AP program in that school along with regular classes. I know in my sons high school they had this. They also had a “magnet” school with some specialized courses like cooking (had its own restaurant). Some schools have special programs for example, only 2 high schools have automotive.

The advantage is that all the kids mix, sort of. The AP kids will take about 5 of 7 classes with other AP kids and only maybe 2 of 7 with regular kids and that might be PE or music.

[MandaJo]

I think there are two very different issues here that are getting mixed up.

1. At some point, highly competitive admissions (for any program) run into this problem where the difference between the kids with the very highest scores and a large group of kids right beneath them are so close as to be arguably meaningless. If you cut off the first group and took all your kids from the second, they would be every bit as successful, because they are perfectly qualified.

When this happens, one school of thought says “well, still take the top, because a difference is a difference, and if they scored higher, they deserve the slot more”. Another school of thought says "At that point, the difference is meaningless, so do a lottery. (A third school of thought says “at that point, chose for other, non-academic qualities”, but that isn’t being debated, here).

2. If you hold that more qualified is more qualified, and creates an entitlement to the slot, that’s the end of the discussion. But if you hold that selection within the group of qualified students ought to have some other factor, you have to decide which one. A 3.5 middle school GPA is one. In my district, we use your location: all comprehensive school zones get a number of slots proportional to their population. You could keep the TJ admissions test, but have a lottery for everyone who passed a threshold.

[MandaJo]

@urbanredneck2

I think if a high school is large enough, say 1200 students, they will have enough students (ex. 100 of those 1200) so they can support an AP program in that school along with regular classes. I know in my sons high school they had this. They also had a “magnet” school with some specialized courses like cooking (had its own restaurant). Some schools have special programs for example, only 2 high schools have automotive.

You can’t have a 9th grade class that goes from Alg 2 to Calculus in a year in a regular school. You can’t offer 3 years of computer science or AP Physics. You can’t have a dedicated lab class for AP Chemistry. You can’t have post-Calculus math.

[DemonTree]

@iiandyiiii

Still better, and less racist, than the status quo.

Wrong. It’s exactly as racist as the status quo, since neither method selects based on race. The racial imbalance caused by the disparate numbers of pupils passing the test is a symptom of the problem, which must caused by something in the feeder schools, the communities concerned, whatever. This change just tries to mask the symptom while ignoring the deeper problems that caused it.

[DemonTree]

@MandaJo

At some point, highly competitive admissions (for any program) run into this problem where the difference between the kids with the very highest scores and a large group of kids right beneath them are so close as to be arguably meaningless. If you cut off the first group and took all your kids from the second, they would be every bit as successful, because they are perfectly qualified.

@MandaJo

You could keep the TJ admissions test, but have a lottery for everyone who passed a threshold.

This sounds like a much better plan in that situation. But if there’s a larger group of kids who’d do equally well, wouldn’t it be better to create more of that type of school so they could all benefit?

[MandaJo]

Sure. But that’s super complicated and expensive. Plus, it will likely be opposed by the people currently in the school and alums, because they will see it as diluting their own accomplishment

[iiandyiiii]

This provides some remedy for the larger problem. Not all, but some. Maybe you’re unaware of the utterly abominable history of the treatment of black people in Virginia, well into the 20th century. Better, and less racist, than the status quo. Your assertions otherwise are unconvincing.