What do you feel about practical applications of Wushu? BJJ?
What are your personal feelings of JKD and do you employ its philosophy in your own training and education?
Glitch:“If you really have your heart set on using Tai Chi in self defense then using the same techniques but under the proper conditions would be fine; however, it would no longer really be Tai Chi.”
I beg to differ slightly if I may be inclined perhaps (I always get excessively reverent when questioning other martial artists ;))
I’ve studied kung fu for several years, and my opinion (and my instructors) is that “real” Tai Chi is exactly as you had described, i.e. same techniques at realistic speed under proper conditions. The watered down “yoga lite” being passed as Tai Chi in most places nowadays is vastly different than the classical Taijiquan as a martial art, which is extremely effective as a self defense and combat art. There are many different variations of the art and many different teaching styles, but the art itself can be practiced as a very effective fighting art.
The Stranger:“Specifically I worry that after so many sessions of padded sparring in the dojo, I am going to “pull” my kicks/strikes in an actual street situation.”
This is a very real concern with students of any art or style. Inevitably, if you train for a long period with the same instructors and students, you adapt your habits and responses to the habits of the others. Over time, what you think may have been a very effective technique (because your sparring partner is trained to react to the technique) may actually not be so.
I’ve done a lot of sharing and cross training with others from various schools and styles, of all skill levels. I’ve been rudely humbled on occasion when I’ve tried something that I felt would be effective on somebody and they dealt with it in a completely different way than I was trained. Sometimes it is the fault of the partner, that doesn’t realize the effectiveness of the technique that you are throwing.
One example, I had a frustrating sparring session once with a guy who kept claiming he was “beating” me by barreling in head down throwing wild haymakers. Fine, except that he hadn’t been acknowledging the flurry of eye and neck strikes, and shin and knee kicks that I had been throwing (without hitting of course).
Find as many different schools, people, and styles to practice with. And all skill levels, beginners throw punches completely different than experts. I will often get blindsided by a beginner while being able to handle anything a black belt throws at me simply because they do the unexpected.
Place ads for freindly informal sparring buddies on messageboards. You will soon get a great feel for what applications you can make work confidently and whcih other ones aren’t so practical.
I hadn’t noticed this remark before.
Fellow Dopers, FYI, GLitch’s not dishing the SD on Tai Chi.
re: “Women’s self-defense courses”
I’ve never taken one. It seems to me that any woman who tries some of these techniques is probably much more likely to get seriously injured than if she screamed and ran away. Can the average (ie non-Martial-Art-trained) woman really learn anything in a 20-odd-hour course that would actually help if she were attacked? It seems to me that the courses are more about instilling confidence than teaching useful skills.
Furthermore, it seems that non-combat-related kinds of things (don’t wear high heels, stay in well-lit areas, if you think you’re being followed go somewhere where there are people, make your attacker think you’re nuts, etc) would be much more effective than some of the other things they teach.
My experience is that tai chi is like classical aikido - beautiful to watch, fun to do, nearly worthless in a real fight.
FWIW, the Army uses a curriculum based mostly on Brazilian Ju-Jitsu.
Regards,
Shodan
Things go in circles, ne? How many more revolving periods of self defense and fighting threads until we get a forum of our own? Would Cecil comment? Can I be a Mod? “Sorry, I must close this thread because of the gratuitous use of peaceful negotiations…”
I never get in fights. The last one I was in was 15 years ago. I get into my fair share of situations living in a tourist town known for its cheap beer, but I have always managed to walk away. I do have the same questions about whether or not I would be able to use my MA training in a real situation. I am leaning towards YES, I would, because I have been startled/scared before and immediately my hands come up to protect my head, by body drops into a fighting stance and my stomach tightens. BUT, my logical side is dealing with the fact that I have NEVER seen a fair fight in my adult life. Never has there been two guys gallantly walking outside of the bar to best each other in a fisticuffs challenge. Nope, it has always been one guy with a few friends behind him starting shit with a singular guy (most often the lone guy is with a woman). So I question if ANY non-lethal MA training will be sufficient in the real world (for the average person)…
…which brings me to my knife training. I now have some concerns about it as well. My knife against 3 unarmed opponents? Yep, I’m going to jail. What about if ‘they’ have a knife? I sincerely doubt they would be kind enough to show me it and give me time to pull mine out. So, is my knife even worth carrying for self-defense? (Yes, I know, I’ve done a 180 degree turn on this in the last 6 months from previous posts, but I really am concerned that I could get myself in more trouble carrying a knife than any benefit it would have in a real-life situation).
And then I think about carrying a gun. I’ve got the license to carry concealed weapons here (Dad-in-law is a forest manager that trains hunters and has all the connections). I can see where having a gun might be more beneficial than a knife, if I were to have time to ready it beforehand. But again, aside from stopping other attacks on other people, is it useful for personal protection in reality?
SO, my question to you, dear Glitch and other trained fighters: Weapons, yea or ne? Chemical sprays, yea or ne? What are your current thoughts?
My take on MA today is that my training has allowed me to walk around looking like someone who won’t go down on the first punch and thus I get avoided. So, it is more useful in the lead up than it would be actually having to use it, capiche?
Oh, and maybe I should point out that I have been thinking about going for a tournament fight (beginner’s of course) at age 33…am I too old to start trying to prove my bad-assness? Or should I just do it so I can say I have? Comments?
-Tcat
Tim Mousel’s Academy was where I trained in Houston, and offered full contact sparring in Jeet Kune Do, Boxing, Kickboxing, Kali, and Grappling. He’s a student of Dan Inosanto, one of Bruce Lee’s head Jeet Kune Do honchos. If you’re in Southern California I’d highly recommend seeking out someone associated with Inosanto’s Jeet Kune Do Concepts.
Glitch what please is your story behind your comment that you should take courses offered by the British police?
I ask partially from personal interest, as I trained for some time under a martial artist who was a British Police Officer, and who was involved in improving British Police unarmed combat training. A police officer in training used to get a weeks practice at military style marching and a days practice at self defense in the bad old days.
This is directed at cowgirl’s comments. As a woman who has studied some martial arts, nothing pisses me off more than people who argue that you are safer to just submit.
Of course it is best to use your head, stay in lit areas, and wear sensible shoes if you can. Why not avoid a confrontation (if you can) by acting weird? But when you get jumped from behind getting into your car, you don’t have that choice.
I fully believe that every woman in the world could benefit from learning some self defense techniques, even if they choose not to use them in a threatening situation. It boosts confidence, which attackers pick up on, and it gives you more tools to deal with whatever situation you find yourself in.
I’m heading out shortly, I’ll be back on Saturday. Hopefully the thread will still be alive then. I’ll answer what I can briefly and address everything in detail when I get back.
Shodan: Thanks for the info on the US Army!
The British Police story. As many of you know the British police perform their duties largely without the benefit of firearms. The weapon of choice by most thugs in the UK is some kind of knife or bladed weapon, some of them homemade with razor blades. As such, the British police are simply amazing at defending themselves against empty handed and melee armed attackers. I’m not much for a technical approach to self defense, but their technique is terrific! It encompasses everything that self defense needs to be. This stuff is proven not in the dojo but on the street day in and day out by the British police.
The Stranger: I love Kenpo/Kempo. It is a very well rounded martial art, if it is taught in the traditional standard way that I see in most schools. If your only goal is to pick some other martial art just to pick up street-smart applications, don’t worry about it, continue with your current school and develop the defensive mindset (see the recommended reading above, especially “Real Fighting”). Incorporate those ideals into your training, and you’ll be good to go. If you just want to round out your skills, you might consider some kind of weapon. You can learn alot about empty handed fighting from learning how to use a weapon. The other choice would be some kind of grappling art, like jujutsu, since Kenpo/Kempo tends to be mainly kick/punch.
Tomcat:
Weapons - yes, assuming they are legal and your going to take the time to learn them properly. Weapons are no more talismans that make you immortal than a black belt. Don’t let your weapon be a liability either physically or mentally.
Chemical Sprays - no, bad bad bad. They either need to be too precise (remember fine motor skill is gone under adrenal stress) or take too long to take effect. If you have your heart set on using one get a choking agent and not a tearing agent.
MA for Self Defense - Keep in mind that people completely untrained in MA defend themselves all the time. At crunch time, their animal mind rises to the challenge. MA can give you that extra edge by hopefully giving you some more effective techniques. Martial artist or not, the key always comes back to the same thing, developing the defensive mindset.
Tournaments - Heck yeah. Have fun! 
Don’t expect too much, most tournaments are dominated by the younger crowd. Participate in some tournies and maybe you could move on to being a referee which is a nice way to be involved in the local MA community.
Cowgirl:
Statistically, you are 2% more likely to sustain minor injuries (classified medically as abrasions or contussions) by resisting than submitting. The choice as to whether resist or not is a personal one; however, some general rules apply (read “Strong on Defense” btw):
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You can never ever know a violent criminal’s intent. Never. Ever. You don’t want to be there as he fulfills his plan. Escape if possible is always the best course of action. Scenario: Criminal demands your purse, you drop the purse and run. He pursues you after picking up the purse. What conclusion can you draw? His target all along was more than the purse. Spur of the moment crimes are a fantasy (See “Interviews with the Criminal”, “Inside the Criminal Mind”). Criminals pre-plan exactly what they ultimately want to achieve. A criminal doesn’t break into a house, find a woman and decides to rape her. He breaks into a house knowing full well that if a woman is inside he will rape her, and if there isn’t okay he’ll just rob the place.
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20 hours doesn’t seem like much time, but you can learn a fair bit in that time depending on the quality of the course. You’re right that the course focuses on confidence, but that’s because our culture has heavily ingrained into woman that they should never ever hit somebody, because it isn’t ladylike. That cultural barrier needs to be broken in a woman who wants to learn self defense. When I teach my class, I don’t teach much technique either. I focus on the most imporant thing… developing the defensive mindset. A good self defense class; however, should not just have an armour assailant to beat on, it should be based on Scenario Based Training. Not enough classes are heading in that direction.
Epimetheus: Both of those styles are fine. Again, self defense is not technical it is largely mental. I can teach people to defend themselves with 2-3 techniques. Both of those styles will help you develop good martial artist spirit and warrior spirit. If you combine it with the lessons you can pick up in the books I’ve mentioned you’ll be fine.
That being said, I do not like BJJ from a technical perspective, in that I don’t think I’d actually try to use them. BJJ may very well allow you to win the fight, but a fight shouldn’t be what you want. The purpose of self defense is to survive sustaining as little injury as possible. BJJ will tell you to take the opponent to the ground and beat him… fine, but extending your contact with a violent criminal should not be your objective even if it is to beat him. So, let me make this 100% clear, I am not saying BJJ cannot win fights and that it is useless for self defense, I am saying that BJJ technique is contrary to the purpose of self defense, whether it is successful or not. Plus, there is the problem of multiple assailants to consider.
Tai Chi: Whether those who study Tai Chi like it or not the vast majority of Tai Chi schools are teaching the “watered down Yoga lite crap”. There are two Tai Chi schools locally to me. I know them well, and once when somebody came to one of them to learn self defense they sent them to me.
If there some minority of Tai Chi schools that are teaching “true” Tai Chi. You got me, you could be absolutely 100% right. I call it as I see it, and if somebody asks me what they’ll learn in a Tai Chi school then chances are they’re going to learn what the vast majority of schools are teaching. Also, pointing out that such and such can do this and he studies Tai Chi is useless and logically irrelevent. Ultimately, who cares anyway… as I’ve stated a few times just in this one post the answer to self defense is not technical anyway. If you can develop the defensive mindset while studying Tai Chi and are happy, then I’m happy too because being happy and having no delusions is what counts in the end.
I’m running out time so I’ll leave this for the reader to figure out until I can get back on Saturday.
My instructor Sosai Oyama was called the Godhand because he would often fell an opponent with a single punch. He could kill a bull with his bare hands.
What conclusion can we draw about my abilities? Can I fell an opponent with a single punch? Can I defeat a bull bare handed?
Okay, I’ll spell it out. You can find exceptions to just about anything. The exception is not the rule. Just because one person, or even a few, can perform some feat and they study such and such doesn’t mean that style is representive of that feat. I can pretty safely say that somebody who does TKD is going to be good at kicking. If I run into a few TKD people who can win a grappling tournament or are good at grappling am I going to start telling people that TKD is a grappling martial art? Not likely. I actually have a whole chapter on this in my book because it is one of the biggest problems that gets pounded in the average martial artist’s brain. They get it stuck in their head that they are the continuation of some ancient warrior line, or that they are studying Master So-and-So art and he was great so I must be too. I would wager that the vast majority of Kyokushin students would be trampled and gored to death by a bull in a barehanded fight… but how can that be Sosai Oyama can beat one? The other manifestation of this is the “My master can beat up you master”… if you ever run into this your reaction should be “So what?”.
As for the San Shou tournaments, I did a little bit of research. I found it interesting that many of these champions list the arts the study and include Tai Chi along with other martial arts. The ability to win tournaments does not necessarily translate to street fighting. Also amusing is that Tai Chi is typically listed last. For those who can’t figure what I mean by this, when I list the arts of studied I typically start with Karate, blah blah blah. The ones at the end tend to be ones I consider of minor consideration and there for completeness.
Now, I am out of here back on Saturday. Ack… late late late! Bye bye! Thanks for all the excellent posts!
I should have looked at your post count before offering the snide (but still valid), “why should I listen to you.” You certainly have some impressive credentials (as well as answers).
So, here are two of my questions:
I posted this in it’s own thread and it sadly never got answered: While training, I bruised my foot (specifically the knuckle where the toes connect to the foot proper), how would you recommend healing this? The question specifically asked for a winner in the "dit da jow vs. thai liniment vs. epsom salt competition. I was hoping someone would have a more pretentious answer than the relatively mundane “don’t kick anything and give it time and ice.”
Any suggestions?
Also, at my school, we’re constantly lectured on, “use this [fighting] as a last resort only,” “you’re liable for your actions, act responsibly” and variations. Disturbingly, one instructor cryptically added, “because you’re relatively highly trained and because our school is focused on more “street” combat, if you do get dragged into court, they’re likely to use this against you.”
I was a bit flabbergasted. OK, teach the self-defense/sport/etc. aspects of the martial arts, tell everyone how to _____ an attacker and then say, “if you use this, you’re screwed.” I asked the obvious question, “at what point does it become allowable to attack someone (I take “attack” to mean anything that isn’t strictly defense, even a punch as a counterattack)?” The only answer I got that wasn’t, “well, that’s up to you to decide” was showing us a takedown into compliance that the instructor had used before and didn’t arrested.
I’ve asked, or heard this question asked (along with variations such as, “what should I do if the cops show up/the guy who attacked me sues/etc.”) several times, but the answer (aside from the above example) basically is, “that’s beyond the scope of our instruction.”
I can understand that they’re not lawyers, but seriously, isn’t it a bit irresponsible to teach something that could result in litigation and then indemnify yourself? Keeping in ming that Glitch isn’t a lawyer (and he’s Canadian and laws vary with circumstance, etc. etc.), what would you say? It certainly seems silly to think that I’ve spent all this time and money learning how to defend myself only to, should I have to use my skills, get thrown in jail and spend the rest of my life working to pay off a suit against a guy who attacked me.
In fact, the only place I’ve ever seen an article on this was in a gun magazine (it was a great article and I could easily see the application to MA, but I forgot the name of the damn magazine, does this sound familiar to anyone?).
Thanks.
GargoyleWB-
I know what you mean on the beginners throwing something out that blindsides you…
pravnik-
I have read up on Jeet Kune Do…Thank you for your suggestion; I will look into it.
Glitch
I have been practicing with Nunchuku since about age 14. Although I am fairly adept with them, their practicality is non-existant on the street if you’re a law abiding citizen.
(I still love the “flash” when performing a kata involving Nunchuku)
I have copied this question and answer over from the MPSIMS forum, in which a veteran police officer responds to police-related questions:
QUESTION:
A frequent topic under general questions is a variant of “what is the best martial art for self defense?” Responses tend to fall into three categories:
1/ MY martial art (whatever it is) is unbeatable:
2/ It doesn’t matter much what you study as long as you practice a lot;
3/ Martial arts are sports/arts with rules and evenly matched opponents supervised by referees, and don’t have much in common with street fights.
My impression as a civlian NON-martial artist is that a street fight will often involve an ambush by multiple attackers or weapons-users or both, often emboldened by booze or drugs, and that a lot of what we think we know about martial arts is from the movies. Can you contribute thoughts/observations from your knowledge of physical confrontations that you have heard about/investigated/participated in? Have you encountered people who used traditional martial arts to win a street fight? People who tried to use martial arts and lost? Any thoughts on practical self-defense for women, older men, non-athletes, etc? (And I know all about avoidance, staying out of dark alleys, etc. I’m talking specifically about fighting.)
ANSWER FROM “BADGE”:
I’m no martial artist myself. I know a few moves that work for me, specifically to the goal of handcuffing a person. I’m assisted by the fact that most people won’t fight all-out against a cop. They push, grab, twist away, but rarely actually throw punches. A friend of mine believes that all men are born with a little voice that whispers, “Nightstick!” over and over (women, by the way, don’t have that voice. All cops know that we’re more likely to be hurt by a woman in a fight than a man).
I’ve never seen anyone use martial arts in a fight, nor have I investigated a fight in which it was used. I think most serious martial artists avoid fights, possibly because they have nothing to prove. It may also be that even someone with martial arts training, unless they are really practiced, tend to fall back on more basic techniques when in a real fight.
My only recommendation for self-defence is pepper spray. It really does work on most people, at least enough to allow a person to get away or to even the odds a bit. I strongly recommend than anyone who can legally carry it do so.
Glitch:“If you really have your heart set on using Tai Chi in self defense then using the same techniques but under the proper conditions would be fine; however, it would no longer really be Tai Chi.”
The bolded part is the objectionable part.
I have to say that my experience shopping through Tai Chi instructors was fairly disappointing. I can’t argue against what I’ve seen w/ my own two eyes. There’re quite a few people doing some something and calling it tai chi. It is quite different when you get the goods.
It’s hard to find anyone whose been in Chinese MA for any length of time who’s only studied one art. Most people involved in Chinese MA for a while study more than one art.
Typically, the progression goes from one or more of the so called “hard/external” styles to cai chi then to pakua and xingi, (which are traditionally taught together).
Glitch - no disrespect intended, but is that bull-stuff hyperbole, or did your instructor actually mix it up with, and kill, bulls? If the latter, why, and how?
I have limited knowledge with spec ops training. Never in the forces myself. But I trained heavily with 2 guys who provided training to diff spec ops units, and I know and worked out with 2 ex-SEALs. What I can say is that both of the guys I know who essentially provided seminars/short courses, had a lot to offer, but definitely exaggerated their ties with the military for (IMO) self promotion.
Overall, my experience with military folks is similar to yours. No consistent formal MA curriculum. Various amounts of training on basic effective incapacitation techniques/approaches/methods. Far greater emphasis on firearms and knives (and explosives!) FWIW, both of my SEAL friends were HS and college wrestlers.
One reason these guys are so tough is that they are basically young guys, in prime health and fitness, who have considerable time and resources to apply to their training/fitness. For these very same reasons, however, whatever they do is of limited applicability to the average desk jockey.
Stranger - just be very leery of giving any special weight to someone’s use of the term JKD. From my experience, that term is used (and misused) by an incredible number of practitioners. And I’m not even going to touch JKD vs JKD Concepts! 
Chairman Pow - the legalities of MA teaching and practice is an incredibly involved subject. I am a lawyer, and at one time I wrote a series of articles for a MA mag concerning various legal implications. (The mag folded, and the articles were not published.) Ranging from an instructor’s liability for injuries of a student, to a person’s liability for using various weapons in self defense. Huge differences depending on jurisdiction, and impacts regarding both criminal and civil liability. Way beyond the scope of this message board.
Bottomline is that I recommend that you think very carefully before doing anything that will increase the likelihood of your becoming involved with the criminal or civil justice system.
Countdown before someone chimes in that it is better to be judged by 12…
Chm Pow:"I posted this in it’s own thread and it sadly never got answered: While training, I bruised my foot (specifically the knuckle where the toes connect to the foot proper), how would you recommend healing this? The question specifically asked for a winner in the "dit da jow vs. thai liniment vs. epsom salt competition. "
I have had great results with dit da jow, however results really depend on the type of bruise, as well as when you are doing the application or treatment. Jow works best when applied as soon after a bruising as is possible. It is really best as a preventative before bruising has a chance to set in and spread.
It also depends if your bruise is a surface skin bruising, a deep muscular bruising, or an even deeper bruising of a ligament or tendon. Jow is miraculously good for surface bruising, and very helpful for deeper muscular bruising. The deepest type (which it sound like your foot may be) isn’t really going to be helped by anything except lots of time, icepacks, and being careful until it heals naturally.
The Thai linament / Tiger Balm has, for me, helped ease pain and soothe muscular ailments such as strains and pulls, but hasn’t done squat for speeding up the healing of bruises.
There’re also multiple recipes for ddj.
Aspirin is helpful in that it helps the bruise go away faster, but it makes the bruis get bgger initially. By bruise I mean the discoloration. The damage isn’t increased by the aspirin, of course.
Proper nutrition is helpful, of course, for the actual healing process.
Maybe Qadgop’ll answwer your qestion if you put it in GQ.
I’m curious about these sorts of courses. Could you, Glitch or anyone who has taken one or taught one tell me a little bit more what they are like? I guess frankly I’m a little intimidated by my mental image (probably, indeed almost surely inaccurate) of what these classes are really like.
What am I intimidated about? I don’t know, making a fool of myself by sparring (if they even do that) with someone I don’t know with lots of other people watching. Getting weirded out by a situation where someone is trying to simulate real fight conditions, and the attendant stress.
Some of the websites seemed to involve going away for a weekend to a camp or something. At the end of the weekend, do you feel like you’ve been through this cool, intense experience with great teachers, and that it was kind of scary but in the end really builds your confidence? Or do you feel like, who that was sort of weird and nerve wracking?
I don’t know, rereading this I don’t know if I’m asking my question very well, but I guess I’m just wondering about, for lack of a better term, the “vibe” of these kinds of classes. Somehow I’m imagining that asshole Karate teacher in the Karate Kid or something. I’m sure (at least I hope) that’s not accurate, but I’d really appreciate hearing from somebody who can tell me what these courses are really like.