Self Defense Questions

In My Humble Opinion
41

I’m curious about these sorts of courses. Could you, Glitch or anyone who has taken one or taught one tell me a little bit more what they are like? I guess frankly I’m a little intimidated by my mental image (probably, indeed almost surely inaccurate) of what these classes are really like.

What am I intimidated about? I don’t know, making a fool of myself by sparring (if they even do that) with someone I don’t know with lots of other people watching. Getting weirded out by a situation where someone is trying to simulate real fight conditions, and the attendant stress.

Some of the websites seemed to involve going away for a weekend to a camp or something. At the end of the weekend, do you feel like you’ve been through this cool, intense experience with great teachers, and that it was kind of scary but in the end really builds your confidence? Or do you feel like, who that was sort of weird and nerve wracking?

I don’t know, rereading this I don’t know if I’m asking my question very well, but I guess I’m just wondering about, for lack of a better term, the “vibe” of these kinds of classes. Somehow I’m imagining that asshole Karate teacher in the Karate Kid or something. I’m sure (at least I hope) that’s not accurate, but I’d really appreciate hearing from somebody who can tell me what these courses are really like.

42

I’m curious about these sorts of courses. Could you, Glitch or anyone who has taken one or taught one tell me a little bit more what they are like? I guess frankly I’m a little intimidated by my mental image (probably, indeed almost surely inaccurate) of what these classes are really like.

What am I intimidated about? I don’t know, making a fool of myself by sparring (if they even do that) with someone I don’t know with lots of other people watching. Getting weirded out by a situation where someone is trying to simulate real fight conditions, and the attendant stress.

Some of the websites seemed to involve going away for a weekend to a camp or something. At the end of the weekend, do you feel like you’ve been through this cool, intense experience with great teachers, and that it was kind of scary but in the end really builds your confidence? Or do you feel like, who that was sort of weird and nerve wracking?

I don’t know, rereading this I don’t know if I’m asking my question very well, but I guess I’m just wondering about, for lack of a better term, the “vibe” of these kinds of classes. Somehow I’m imagining that asshole Karate teacher in the Karate Kid or something. I’m sure (at least I hope) that’s not accurate, but I’d really appreciate hearing from somebody who can tell me what these courses are really like.

43

I’m curious about these sorts of courses. Could you, Glitch or anyone who has taken one or taught one tell me a little bit more what they are like? I guess frankly I’m a little intimidated by my mental image (probably, indeed almost surely inaccurate) of what these classes are really like.

What am I intimidated about? I don’t know, making a fool of myself by sparring (if they even do that) with someone I don’t know with lots of other people watching. Getting weirded out by a situation where someone is trying to simulate real fight conditions, and the attendant stress.

Some of the websites seemed to involve going away for a weekend to a camp or something. At the end of the weekend, do you feel like you’ve been through this cool, intense experience with great teachers, and that it was kind of scary but in the end really builds your confidence? Or do you feel like, who that was sort of weird and nerve wracking?

I don’t know, rereading this I don’t know if I’m asking my question very well, but I guess I’m just wondering about, for lack of a better term, the “vibe” of these kinds of classes. Somehow I’m imagining that asshole Karate teacher in the Karate Kid or something. I’m sure (at least I hope) that’s not accurate, but I’d really appreciate hearing from somebody who can tell me what these courses are really like.

44

wow. impressive 4 posts there.

I have read that internal martial arts studies, the cultivation of ‘chi’ or whatever, can greatly increase your power. Do you have a POV on this?

Also, have you at any time studied anything from the Dragon Society, Dim Mak or Turite Jutsu? What’s your opinion on the effectiveness of pressure points in Self Defence?

Also, you mentioned Wing Chun and then later on pointed out the problems with arts involving fine motor skills and how they are a lot more difficult to use in a violent confrontation with factors like the adrenal dump to contend with. It is my impression of the limited study i have made of Wing Chun that it falls into this category, would you agree?

Do you advocate using a pre-emptive strike if you are confident that the aggressor intends to hit you or do you believe in countering?

Cheers,
David

45

** Gargoyle/SimonX** Thanks for the info. The only place I know of around here to get ddj is a hardcore-looking Shaolin school, I’m almost afraid to go in…

** Dinsdale ** That’s what I figured the answer was. Believe me, if there’s anything I can do to avoid a fight…

Here’s another question for the assembly: punch knuckles horizontal or vertical? Our school trains horizontal, but I keep reading in kung-fu literature that horizontal will break whatever the smaller of the two bones in the wrist is, or at least stress it greatly. Should I switch?

46

Chairman Pow if one form of punching was vastly inferior to all others then it wouldn’t be used; its another ‘whatever suits you’ answer I’m afraid. Your body will become conditioned to whatever method of punching to train with.

For the record, a lot of self defence practitioners are beginning to advocate open handed strikes such as the palm heel or hammerfist as being preferable to a punch, as this decreases the chances of hurting yourself, although this is more related to knuckle damage than it is to wrist damage I think. Still, I can well imagine it would save your wrists also.

47

SimonX: I will bow to your knowledge of Tai Chi. I will adjust the statement to “… it would no longer be Tai Chi as it is currently commonly taught.” Thank you for your information. OSU!

Time is short, I’m just getting back in. I’ll be back shortly to answer the rest. The boss is telling me to get off the Internet and help unpack. :wink:

48

Conditioning of the hands and wrist are very important before engaging in forceful punching.
The most punching injuries I’ve seen involve the bones beneath the pinky finger and near there. As a matter of fact, IIRC, it’s called a boxer’s fracture. This is often the result of “haymakers,” wild punches that “come all the way from left field.”
I have reason to believe that there’re a number of arts that teach the use of both horizontal and vertical planes for the fist while punching.

If one has doubts about the strength and/or conditioning of your hand/wrist then one may be more comfortable with using the palm. Many punching techniques translate easily into the use of the palm instead. I’d encourage women especially, due to the size of their wrists and generally smaller bone structure to favor a palm over a fist. YMMV.

I think that you should trust your instructor’s judgement, if possible. If this is not possible, then you need a new instructor. YMMV.

49

FWIW, I would not reccomend Tai Chi to someone seeking a self defense course. Not because there’s anything wrong w/ TC, or that it’s lacking a body of effective techniques, but because it’s both more than and not what most people want, (there’re exceptions of course). I suspect that many would become frustrated with spending months learning how to do things like stand, walk and breathe. For most people, these kinds of details are utterly unecessary and irrelevant to them.

I would reccomend it to someone who already has a martial background and is looking to polish their skills/ get an edge. ( For me anyway, my brief exposure to Tai Chi has deepened my understanding of what I’ve already learned.) IMHO, these people will benefit more and more readily from exposure to it. There’s just so much of an emphasis on the “how” of things in TC.
Most people just aren’t interested, nor do they need to be.

A basic course of quick, effective, simple, memorable, easily executable techniques like what you discuss is what I think most people are looking for, (and all that is really necessary), when they want a self defense course. I think such courses are much more profitable for them as far as the time to technique ratio goes, as well.

YMMV

50

Come on you guys, I posted my question four times and still nobody’s answered it! (Sorry about that by the way: there’s just no telling with these hamsters: sometimes they eat a post, sometimes they multiply it)

Can anybody tell me what to expect from one of these self-defense (not strictly MA) type courses like the ones that Glitch linked to above?

51

constantine it really largely depends on the instructor; the best self defence course I ever attended was a seminar at the end of last year run by Geoff Thompson and Peter Constardine, it was an all day event and we covered:

  1. prefight - how to control a potential violent confrontation and hopefully get out of the situation without having to fight at all

  2. ‘the fence’ - a physical and psychological barrier and a way of controlling the distance between you and your attacker whilst gicving you an indication of his intentions

  3. pre-emptive strike - if you have reasonable belief that he’s going to hit you, hit him first

Various different strikes and methods - slap to the jaw, gut punch, elbow strikes and a low sweep I think, trained at full impact on people holding pads. The ‘double-hip’ motion for power generation. A few basic throws, grapples and chokes.

The most useful things I gained out of this seminar are these: use of verbal to dissuade an attacker (I have used this IRL to good effect), the fence, ‘lining up’ the opponent with a strike just in case and most importantly, an understanding of adrenaline and the physiological factors associated with it, which help keep me calm in a potentially violent confrontation. Actual techniques weren’t the most important thing I took away, more an understanding of how the techniques I practise every day at MA training would apply IRL.

I am a firm believer that for self defence, an understanding and mastery of adrenaline is crucial, and if you want to have some good strikes to attack back with then its not enough to go to a ‘course’ - you need to constantly train with them in order to make them, and keep them, effective.

52

Constantine: GDragon’s response is pretty close to my experiences (granted, I’ve never been to one, but I’ve done plenty of research in determining whether or not I want to go). Basically, they seem to be martial arts with none of the trappings, or at least highly demystified ones.

Some, like Jim Wagner, like lists (i.e. prefight, fight, post-fight, lots of acronyms/mnemonics), then they cover very basic techniques (the theory being that in a fight, you’re not going to have years of training to fall back on, and indeed, most training gets thrown out the window in a real fight situation anyway) and situations where they recall the techniques. As for sparring, I don’t htink they would spend too much time, since they’re designed for acting quickly and definitively, not drawn out as in a tournament, so I wouldn’t worry about that.

Calling them “MA for Dummies” is unecessarily derogatory, but it’s basically as stripped down as you can get an MA, or at least providing the very basics (which isn’t to say they’re not effective).

Another one that sounds very interesting to me is Tim Larkin’s Target Focus Training. Does anyone have any experience with this? It sounds kind of like a modern Dim Mak at worst and really practical at best. The mental aspect of this is also very interesting, the “strike first, strike smartest” approach.

I also recall seeing in Black Belt (or maybe Grappling of all places) the “12 Most Effective Techniques” written by a dude who did some serious redevelopment for the police/military. Basically, it was ear slaps, hammer fist, eye/throat gouge, stomp and knee strike (can’t remember the others). I want to say it was an advertorial for a Loompanics book, but I couldn’t find it in their catalogue.

As for feeling foolish going to one of these, I really wouldn’t worry. If you’re paying $200+ for it, the instructors are going to make sure you’re getting your money’s worth. Of course, you can also check out the videos these guys sell first to see if it’s worth your time.

53

Chairmain Pow:

What you’re talking about is called Legal Self Defense. It is an extremely important and often overlooked part of self defense. It is sadly overwhelming undertaught in martial art schools; which, would be the perfect place to teach it. I’m guessing the reason it is avoided is both ignorance and to further distance the instructor from potential liablity, presumably from his own students who may sue if they get dragged into court after following his advice.

First, I am not a lawyer nor do I play on on TV or message boards. Become familiar with your local laws. For example, almost everywhere attacking an attacker when they are down gives you civil liability and quite likely opens up criminal charges. The law views the first fight as having ended and you initiating a new one.

Martial arts training will, it is not even a case of may, be used against you. Any good lawyer will use every edge they can and they’ll try to protray you as:

a) some hothead martial artist spoiling to try out your skills
b) somebody who should have been able to control the fight

When should you attack/counterattack? First, read “The Gift of Fear”. The answer is that if you have developed the defensive mindset then you can reliably trust your instincts. If things are about to get violent, there is nothing wrong with attacking first. Similarly, when under attack there is nothing wrong with counterattacking, but know your local laws. For example, although this may have been repealed, at one time New York had a law requiring the defender to attempt to escape even if no reasonable means exist.

What do you do when the cops show up? Follow their instructions. View this from the cop’s view. He shows up to see you in combat with somebody. You know you’re the good guy but he has absolutely no idea who is who. So he’ll order you both to stop fighting and get in the ground. He’ll likely put you both in handcuffs. Don’t protest or struggle, let the bad guy do that. :slight_smile: When he comes to get your statement don’t embellish, don’t boast, don’t make stuff up. All of that can hurt you. For example, “He came at me and so I popped him one.” could make you look overly aggressive.

What do you do when you’re sued? Hire a lawyer and bite the bullet. Follow your lawyer’s advice.

What do you do you do when attacked to avoid being sued? Of course the obvious, as above be familiar with your local laws and obey them. However, one very good principle is to look defensive to any witness (they count for alot to the police because they are generally unbiased). So by having your hands up, open, backing away (just a step will do) and yelling “Hey, I don’t want any trouble” you can save yourself any trouble. This creates a jarring image in the minds of any witnesses, and even if you do it just as you attack it’ll appear to them that you were one attacked. Avoid appearing to be the aggressor at all costs. Simpler techniques have an advantage here as well, since they about appear to make you into some “super martial artist” picking on some poor schlub.

54

btw, Chairman Pow I didn’t take your question as snide at all.

55

Dinsdale:

I do not support or condemn this practice. Touchy subject for me, so I’m leaving it at that, if you ask me I won’t answer.

Oyama vs The Bull. This is a true story. Well documented and even filmed. He performed the feat numerous times, and didn’t always “win”, he got gored very badly once. As for why? Two reasons, one, he had heard a story about an ancient master who had defeated a bull barehanded and wanted to duplcate the feat. Second, he felt that in order to really understand the martial arts you need to risk bodily harm. He felt that risking you life you would be even better. Early on he would actually kill them. Protestors complained so he switched to breaking their horns off. Protestors complained more and so he stopped. In his defense, he only killed bulls that were destined to be slaughtered.

56

constantine:

I can speak for Peyton Quinn’s, the LFI courses and my own, and there is no “evil Karate teacher” mentality. In general, I’d say that courses that are specific to self defense are less likely to have this attitude because they are short and focused. YMMV. Certainly, I try not to be an ass.

What to expect? From good courses it should use Scenario Based Training, if it doesn’t I’d question the whole value of taking it. So, they’ll teach you some material, then do some scenarios. For example, they’ll have an armoured assailant come up to you and ask you for the time. He may or may not attack you. You need to act accordingly. You will experience the adrenal stress because they scenarios generally are very realistic. Expect some shoving, swearing, etc. But that’s kind of the whole point.

What to take away from it? I suspect, and passed on feedback forms for my own course, that’ll leave with alot of confidence with regards to what you’ve learnt.

57

green_dragon:

Chi: I believe in “chi”, although I think it is essentially human willpower. I do not believe in chi lightning or chi force fields. I believe you can develop better chi through hard training and pushing yourself to go further.

Dragon Society, Dim Mak, Turite Jutsu: no, no and no

Pressure points: I don’t like them. First of all, they don’t always work. Some points work better or worse on different people. I’ve had people use them on me, in training, and some work very well and others not at all. It could be potentially fatal to hit with a pressure point that had no effect. Also, there is the whole fine motor control issue. If you end up grappling or locking the opponent pressure points become much more viable. I’m not going to go so far as to say they are useless. No knowledge is useless, but I think you’d have to train very diligently to ingrave them into the muscle memory to make the useful under adrenal stress. Some are better than others. Pressure point strikes would rank lower.

I’ve learnt some basics of pressure points. What I do and teach is to “aim” for those vulnerable areas, but not the spots themselves. You might get lucky and hit it dead on, but more likely you’ll just cause an extra little bit of pain, which is a good thing.

Wing Chun: I like Wing Chun. Their basic tactics are pretty similar to my own. Sure some of their techniques might fall in the garbage bin, but they use alot of direct strikes, and open up the defense by controlling the opponent; which, is what I like to do. I’ve been able to teach these similar skills in my own class to many different people and they’ve used them during my own SBT that I offer, so I’m pretty confident they work. I think most ever martial is going to have its garbage pile and good pile. Wing Chun is no different but the basic training practices, techniques and tactics are all solid, imo.

Preemptive Strike: Read “The Gift of Fear”. If you’re convinced things are about to get nasty, attack first. Apply good legal self defense and make it appear that you are the defender as best you can. This is tricky and needs to be practiced. This isn’t something commonly done in SBT, because of the limited time frame. I don’t do it either in my short course, but in my long course I do. It is much easier to show than explain, but as I explained above verbaliznig “I don’t want any trouble, leave me alone” goes a long way.

58

Chairman Pow:

Horizontal vs. Vertical. I do both. My philosophy is that whichever fits into the part of the body you want to strike better. For example, vertical for a shot to the solar plexus. Horizontal to the throat. Palm heel to the hard parts of the body. This is the, imo, technically correct approach. For pure self defense, I recommend and teach the palm heel and hammer fist only because it greatly reduces chance of injury. Hammerfist for face strikes, palm heel for the rest. One of the best and main techniques I teach is the facial claw. Take you palm and place it on your chin. Roll your palm up, fingers spread open. If done right, you’ll discover that on almost any human face your fingers will go right into the eyes. This ends fights fast. There are some extra nitty-gritties but there are easier to show than explain.

59

Legal Self Defense Addendum:

Here in Canada, and I’ve been told is becoming more common elsewhere, is the notion of equivalent force. What this means is that you may not use more force to defend yourself than was used to attack you.

For example, if somebody attacks me empty handed and I respond with a knife I’m in legal trouble. Lets suppose that even then the opponent draws his own knife, I’m still in legal trouble because I ended the first emptyhanded fight and started a new knife fight.

The application to self defense in general is obvious. For martial artists there is an extra twist. Some martial artists are getting in trouble for using their martial arts skills against untrained thugs. So, somebody attacks you with a punch, and you respond by breaking his arm. This could be a local legal no-no.

Similarly, some prosectors have gone so far as to say that responding with a “karate kick” ups the level of force!!! :eek: The implications are clear.

60

Addedum to Addendum (sure wish I could edit) :slight_smile:

Woman are somewhat a special case to these sorts of laws. Because of a size difference a man attacking a woman could be considered as having a higher degree of force than the woman and she could be legally okay to respond with an equalizer like a knife, gun or martial arts.