[QUOTE=Oy!]
Wait a minute. Are you saying that Kerry’s service was dishonorable because he protested the war after he returned?
[/QUOTE]
No. His service in uniform lacked honor. His actions after the war are a completely separate matter. Though it too lacked honor.
[QUOTE=Ensign Edison]
Bricker is in favor of gay marriage and against the death penalty, just to begin with.
[/QUOTE]
Pro-gay marriage, anti-death penalty, and in favor of honest, positive campaigning?
If Bricker ever runs for president, he might be the first Republican presidential candidate I vote for. 
[QUOTE=magellan01]
And you’d be—SURPRISE!—wrong. And while I might not be the person to evaluate someone’s service in a war forty years ago that I did not see, the people who were there are. His commanders are. They are free to share their thoughts and observations. I m free to evaluate them. You do realize how the study of history works, don’t you. Wait, no need to answer that.
And I’m free to evaluate what the media has preserved of his actions after his Great Escape from combat.
But wait, I say bad things about John F’in Kerry I therefore disparage all military men who have ever served; I disparage all people ever to have hail from Massachusetts; I disparage all mighty windsurfers and bunny-suit wearers, all males, all of the human race!!! All organic matter, too! :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
The peopel who served with Kerry, his commanders and the US Navy itself all speak very favorably of his service. Most of the swiftboat scumbags never even served with him. The Navy says the swiftboat accusations are a load.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
On the totality of information that I have. On the book that revealed him for what he is. And numerous interviews with them and others, Kerry included, that revealed him for what his is. On the lies he’s been caught in. On the fact he’s never released his full military medical records as he said he would.
I’m curious, have you read Unfit for Command?
[/QUOTE]
You seem to behind the curve on this. Everything in the Swiftboat book has been roundly debunked and refuted. The fact that you would try to cite it does great damage to your own credibility.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
No. His service in uniform lacked honor.
[/quote]
Cite? The Navy, his commanders and those he served with all say otherwise.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Cite? The Navy, his commanders and those he served with all say otherwise.
[/QUOTE]
Do a search. Or not. You’re wrong about “all of his commanders”, that their accusations have been debunked, and much, much more. I’d insult you roundly here for being so…YOU…but I wouldn’t want to inadvertently insult all Doper or all of mankind.
So I leave with what that which should be named after you: :rolleyes:
So you have no cite. I’ll just let the record show that you have no respect for military service.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
As far as McCain, I appreciated your thoughtful post. I do think it fair that someone who liked him in 2000 might not like him now. That they might find his stances on the issues that face us today unacceptable. But to equate that to some fundamental failing on his part goes too far.
[/QUOTE]
It does not go too far at all IMO. Someone reversing themselves so thoroughly, as has been cited in this thread already (and you never responded to), is a severe character flaw. We want people who have the courage of their convictions. Not someone who will prostitute themselves when it proves expedient. That is NOT who I want as president.
Of course people can change their minds and that is even a good thing. Being hidebound to a position despite what information is available is stupid. In the case of McCain though he has reversed himself so many times and on principled matters to boot there is no hand waving it away as an aberration.
That a person who made such a trademark for himself as a principled Senator to bend over and cozy up to people he once had huge issues with is appalling. Based on his previous service to the country I could grant him some leeway but he has made it impossible to ignore. It is not just a little thing here or there but a massive pile of evidence of this remarkable change in persona. He simply is not the same man anymore and my choice is to vote for the man he is today…not the man he was in 1999 or 1975.
Dio & magellan01…seems what you two are on about deserves its own GD or even Pit thread.
Just saying…carry on.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
So you have no cite. I’ll just let the record show that you have no respect for military service.
[/QUOTE]
Aside from there being no relationship between the two sentences you typed, I’ll just say this. No, I will not bother providing a cite for you. This has been discussed before. You’ve even participated. You know how to search. Have fun.
As far as the record, do me sure it shows—plainly and clearly—that I have no respect for you.
[QUOTE=Wikipedia with further cites]
Of those who served in Kerry’s boat crew, only Stephen Gardner joined SBVT.[18] He was not present on any of the occasions when Kerry won his medals, including his Purple Hearts. Gardner appeared in two of the group’s television advertisements.
All other living members of Kerry’s crew supported his presidential bid, and some frequently campaigned with him as his self-described ‘band of brothers’. Kerry crewmembers have disputed some of SBVT’s various allegations: “totally false” (Drew Whitlow), “garbage” (Gene Thorson), and “a pack of lies” (Del Sandusky).[19][20][21]
No members of SBVT were aboard Kerry’s boat during any of the incidents for which he was decorated. The only member of SBVT who was present at the Silver Star incident, Rood’s crewmember Larry Clayton Lee, praised Kerry’s tactics and stated that he earned his Silver Star; he stated that based on discussions with other SBVT members, he came to question whether Kerry deserved other medals for incidents at which he was not present.[22][23]
Of those who served in Kerry’s boat crew, only Stephen Gardner joined SBVT.[18] He was not present on any of the occasions when Kerry won his medals, including his Purple Hearts. Gardner appeared in two of the group’s television advertisements.
All other living members of Kerry’s crew supported his presidential bid, and some frequently campaigned with him as his self-described ‘band of brothers’. Kerry crewmembers have disputed some of SBVT’s various allegations: “totally false” (Drew Whitlow), “garbage” (Gene Thorson), and “a pack of lies” (Del Sandusky).[19][20][21]
No members of SBVT were aboard Kerry’s boat during any of the incidents for which he was decorated. The only member of SBVT who was present at the Silver Star incident, Rood’s crewmember Larry Clayton Lee, praised Kerry’s tactics and stated that he earned his Silver Star; he stated that based on discussions with other SBVT members, he came to question whether Kerry deserved other medals for incidents at which he was not present.[22][23]
[18]^ Brinkley, Douglas (2004-03-09). “The Tenth Brother”, Time Magazine. Retrieved on 2008-06-30.
[19]^ “McCain assails attacks on Kerry wartime record”, San Diego Union-Tribune (2004-08-06).
[20]^ “Vets group attacks Kerry; McCain defends Democrat”, San Francisco Chronicle (2004-08-06).
[21]^ “Kerry crewmates defend his record”, Kinston Free Press (2004-08-29).
[22]^ Gerth, Joseph (2004-08-26). “Kentucky veteran involved in ambush backs Kerry account”, Courier-Journal (Louisville, KY). Retrieved on 2007-04-22.
[23]^ Hume, Brit (2004-08-26). “Political Grapevine”, Fox News Channel. Retrieved on 2007-04-07.
[/QUOTE]
Unfit for Command doesn’t seem to be the most reliable source, I’m afraid. Only one of the SBVT served with Kerry, and he wasn’t there on any of the occasions on which Kerry won his medals. The only SBVT guy who was there for one of them praised Kerry for his actions on that particular occasion. All the rest of Kerry’s crew says he deserved his medals. Sorry, magellan, but it seems to me that the preponderance of evidence here is that Kerry served honorably.
[QUOTE=Oy!]
Unfit for Command doesn’t seem to be the most reliable source, I’m afraid. Only one of the SBVT served with Kerry, and he wasn’t there on any of the occasions on which Kerry won his medals. The only SBVT guy who was there for one of them praised Kerry for his actions on that particular occasion. All the rest of Kerry’s crew says he deserved his medals. Sorry, magellan, but it seems to me that the preponderance of evidence here is that Kerry served honorably.
[/QUOTE]
This is the result of reality’s liberal bias.
Darn those facts!
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Kerry gamed the system and fabricated an exit after a few months in combat by trying to turn bad-aids into Purple Hearts.
[/QUOTE]
He did not game the system. It just was the system.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Yep. And yep.
[/QUOTE]
I might point out that your first link to Reuters is not a news report but a press release (see source at the end of the article and note it is in the press release section). As such it proves nothing except what the authors of the press release want you to believe.
I have yet to read the second link through but I did note while it looks like they were footnoting their evidence they (probably innocently) did not actually include the footnotes/cites. As such it makes it difficult to sort through their claims and verify what they say. They’ve been thoroughly debunked to this point but maybe this chapter will be different.
I just find it interesting that all these people who are so busy screaming about how unjustified Kerry’s medals were weren’t on the boat, while all the people on the boat seem to think it was absolutely legit. What’s wrong with that picture?
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
I might point out that your first link to Reuters is not a news report but a press release (see source at the end of the article and note it is in the press release section). As such it proves nothing except what the authors of the press release want you to believe.
I have yet to read the second link through but I did note while it looks like they were footnoting their evidence they (probably innocently) did not actually include the footnotes/cites. As such it makes it difficult to sort through their claims and verify what they say. They’ve been thoroughly debunked to this point but maybe this chapter will be different.
[/QUOTE]
New book. New chapter. New witnesses. Enjoy.
By the way, I’d like to know how many of those who hold the Swiftboat Vets in such low regard actually read Unfit for Command as opposed to taking Wikipedia’s explanation. :rolleyes: But no problem, new book, new opportunity to keep your fingers in your ears and your hands over your eyes.
magellan, I read your article. I didn’t see anyone who was on Kerry’s boat. Your ‘witnesses’ seem to all be people who have political beefs with Kerry.
My father got a Purple Heart in WWII when hit by masonry from a crumbling building in Germany after the war had ended. Do you think he doesn’t deserve his? I certainly hope not; he has the scars to this day. Then why would Kerry not deserve a Purple Heart for an injury due to rice sent flying by an explosion? A war related injury is a war related injury - it doesn’t have to be caused by metal.
[QUOTE=Oy!]
magellan, I read your article. I didn’t see anyone who was on Kerry’s boat. Your ‘witnesses’ seem to all be people who have political beefs with Kerry.
My father got a Purple Heart in WWII when hit by masonry from a crumbling building in Germany after the war had ended. Do you think he doesn’t deserve his? I certainly hope not; he has the scars to this day. Then why would Kerry not deserve a Purple Heart for an injury due to rice sent flying by an explosion? A war related injury is a war related injury - it doesn’t have to be caused by metal.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, “war-related”" is not the metric. Enemy action is. For instance, Max Cleland lost limbs when a grenade was dropped as he came off a helicopter. That didn’t merit him a Purple Heart, although it was indeed war-related. As he explained in his autobiography Strong at the Broken Places:
[QUOTE= Max Cleland]
I was not entitled to the Purple Heart either, since I was not wounded by enemy action.
[/QUOTE]