All that suggests to me is that opinion can be swayed on this issue. Which, sadly, the Democrats as a whole don’t seem to understand even though the Republicans and their supporters clearly do. As I said, there’s an opportunity for Democrats to lead on this issue if they’re smart enough to seize it.
But given these numbers, the assertion that pursuing this issue must automatically be bad for the Democratic Party just doesn’t hold water.
Possibly, but the Democrats don’t seem to think so. Why is that? Are they stupid? Maybe they understand things better than you do. And why are the Republicans so eager to let this go to a vote? Are you the only one who understands this issue correctly?
Have you been paying attention to the guys who analyse this stuff for a living? I haven’t heard even one of them come to a different conclusion than I did. I’m afraid my analysis holds water quite well, thank-you-very-much.
http://americanresearchgroup.com/
As regards polling, the above:
Do you favor or oppose the United States Senate passing a resolution censuring President George W. Bush for authorizing wiretaps of Americans within the United States without obtaining court orders?
46% favor, 44% oppose, 10% undecided. But hold on to your ah, hats. 29% of Republicans favor censure!
Now, to me, the thing of it is: he didn’t have to! He had all kinds of ways to go about doing what he wanted to do, legally and kosher. If he felt he had an urgent need to proceed, he could have done so and presented his reasoning to the courts after the fact. So, what it boils down to is that the doesn’t feel he should need to justify his actions in court. Which is getting just a tad too imperial for me. Its too much like declaring someone a suspect in order to gather the evidence that would make him a suspect.
Censure is precisely the toothless sort of gesture the situation calls for. A public scolding is the very leastest thing this Administration deserves. Drawing and quartering would be, I believe, too extreme a sanction. I remain open to persuasion on that point.
how did you get that cool wysiwyg box??!
<code>…</code>, but replace “<>” with “”. I still had to futz with it, though. I know there are better ways to reproduce tables, but I can never remember all the tricks.
Honestly? I’m beginning to wonder. But more importantly, why should I believe them? Their track record lately has been less than stellar.
Maybe. And maybe they don’t. One way or the other, I’m sure we’ll see how well the Democrat’s usual strategies and tactics work this November, and in 2008.
I suspect because they’ve guessed, correctly, that the Democrats would fold. Again.
But that doesn’t mean I agree with the Republican’s about the political viability of this move, either.
Your analysis at this point consists of your own assertions, two poll results, and the appeal to authority above. That’s it. And you don’t even trust polls.
Let’s dispense with the vague appeals to anonymous experts in lieu of an actual argument, thank-you-very-much. I seem to be looking at much the same data you are. Why should I believe your assertion (and that’s all it is right now, an assertion) that this issue is automatically a non-starter for Democrats?
Why was Brer Rabbit so afraid of being thrown in the briar patch? Because they’re using reverse psychology, and we Dems keep falling for it!
Appeal to authority is not a fallacy when the people being appealed to are authorities. Just so you know.
Why should you believe my assertion? Because I’m right, of course. 
If all you think we’re doing is voicing opinions, then let’s just agree to disagree. I’m happy to let the lurkers decide whom they think has the better analysis.
Fine by me. And, as I said, I’m sure we’ll see the value of the Democrat’s conventional wisdom this November.
I hope so. I’d love to see the Democrats take back at least one of the Houses of Congress. I like my government divided, politically, and I kinda want to be able to vote for McCain in '08. I prefer a Pubbie in the WH and the Dems running Congress, to get the best bang out of my gridlock.
Remember that in November!
I said I hope they do, but I doubt they will. Still, they should pick up seats in both houses.
I meant, when you go to vote, please remember that you want the Dems to win!
You know, I always get exciting in the run-up to the elections, and then I remember I live in the SF Bay Area in CA. Often I’ll just “throw away my vote” on the Libertarians. I consider it charity work.
If that’s how you’re thinking, vote Green!
This is kind of drunk posting (see my Match Day thread in MPSIMS!) so it may be a bit incoherent.
The Republicans have proved their adeptness at turning on a dime and not being held responsible for any previous views. They seem to be all about the “here and now” of governance. The Dems are the ones who constantly are defending actions of 3 years ago (and in the case of the Kerry campaign, during Vietnam and the time after). Bush in all likelihood was a coke-snorting drunk AWOL playboy until he turned 40, but he is the president. Kerry gets wounded a few times and spends a third of his campaign defining the size of the shrapnel embedded in his thigh. The Dems are remarkably poor at this compared to the Repubs.
Look at the track record – Iraq is about WMDs/Iraq is about democracy. No nation building/let’s build 2. Fiscal conservative/Medicare Drug Plan. I’m sure if I spent 5 minutes, I could come up with 10 more. And Kerry spends another third of his campaign defending “I voted for it before I voted against it.”
So when (not if) we draw down troop numbers, it will be a popular thing to do. At least for the American public; if it isn’t exactly popular by now, the Echo Chamber will make it so. It may not be the right thing to do, but again, the Dems will be forced to run a presidential campaign on what happened in the past, not the here-and-now. And instead of defending the popular view, they’ll be trying to go back into Iraq. It is a political ambush of awesome proportions unfolding.
And who are you depending on to call out this bullshit? The media? Ha. The Congressional Dems who are avidily trying to out-hawks the Repubs? Ha Ha.
So here’s another two reasons why the Feingold thing is brilliant.
It isn’t about what happened last year. The president continues to wiretap illegally right now. What is the Repub response from Congress? Yeah, he’s breaking the law, so let’s change the law. So in other words, year we acknowledge that he has broken the law, but…
The Congressional Dems have been portrayed as spineless milquetoast gasbags. And they haven’t done a damn thing to dispute this. So Feingold can get a lot of attention and energy from the now burnt-out Dem faithful by becoming directly antithetical. If he is martyred for his position and loses his seat, so much the frikken’ better.
Remember, at this point, he could care less about the Dem faithful. He knows perfectly well if he builds a following among the Dean/moveon types and picks up Cato Republicans, he will look totally unbelievable to the Dem faithful. They’ll rally around him in a heartbeat. Any splits can be fixed in the space of one speech.
With a few exceptions, you could replace Repub with Dem in that sentence.
Hmm? The Dems are not wiretapping illegally right now.
Thank you. Exactly my point. That’s exactly what the moveon/Dean folks are trying to avoid. That’s exactly why unhappy Repubs are prime to be cleaved.