Serial commas

As a writer, editor, and publisher, I always use serial commas, and am very annoyed to note that many major writers, editors, and publishers do not. That is, they will write “writers, editors and publishers,” instead of the normal, natural, and proper style I have use three times already in this paragraph alone.

Why, you ask, is this important? Why is this in Great Debates? Because the use of the comma after the penultimate item in a list establishes the equivalence of all of the items in the list, and avoids suggesting an invalid connection between the penultimate and final items.

The best example of this problem I’ve come across was in a speech by an artist who had received a Grammy award. She was quoted in the press the next day as saying, “I’d like to thank my parents, God and Madonna.”

One presumes that the speaker did not intend to suggest this improbable ancestry, but observe what terrible things can occur simply for want of a humble comma.

And what is the putative advantage of eliminating the last comma? Saving space? Hah! No doubt there are acres of forest still standing because the New York Times eliminates thousands of commas from its pages each year. But at what cost? Clarity, comprensibility, and correctness!

So the debate here, obviously, is for you Dopers to present your best reasons for leaving out the essential last comma. Since I am possessed by something approaching religious fervor on this issue (perhaps the only area of my life which could be called religious), you are warned that it will be diffcult, nigh on impossible, to sway me from this view. But I am willing to consider the arguments against me.

Of course, right-thinking people who wish to agree with me are free to join in, too.

“. . . you are warned that it will be diffcult, nigh on impossible, to sway me from this view. But I am willing to consider the arguments against me.”

Um, because the overly vociferous policing of usage, form, and punctuation is often at the expense of more basic things, like speeling?

Gairloch

DAMN, DAMN, DAMN! And after I previewed it at least three times! One typo always slips through. Why the heck don’t the moderators here let us edit? I frequent another board with the same software that allows editing for 90 minutes after posting.

I learned to use a comma before the word AND in a list when I was in grammar school. When I graduated from high school, it was still being taught this way. (over twenty years ago)

But, when I started college (ten years ago), my sophomore grammar professor (in her 70’s) said it was no longer correct to do so.

No explanation was given.

Sorry. That was unfair, picky, petty, small-minded, ungenerous, and fun. It satisfied the unrepentant souls of Yeats, God and Jerry Garcia.

Gairloch

http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-oxf1.htm

Perhaps the best argument for the serial comma is that apocryphal book dedication: “To my parents, Ayn Rand and God”.

The cite linked to gave the example above as THEIR example. :rolleyes:

BTW: I agree with the usage of the penultimate comma. Regardless of any plageurism or some such coincidence made by the OP.

The argument against the serial comma has nothign to do with saving typographical space. The argument is that the comma in a list of objects is understood to represent a conjuntion. In particular, it represents whichever conjunction introduces the final element. As such, it is redundant to write: For lunch I had donuts and cheese-whiz and chocolate sprinkles and and a diet coke. That redundancy persists even when the non-terminous "and"s are relaced with ","s.

As for the “best argument for,” it is always possible to compose clunky and ambiguous sentences. It is not particularly difficult to rephrase the sentence.
[ul]I would like to thank God, my parents and Madonna.[/ul]
If there is a circumstance when priority of appearance absolutely demands that a plural pronoun precede more than a single terminating element, then the serial comma can be used for clarity. Clarity always trums rules of punctuation, anyway.

Of course, I really don’t care much one way or the other. I just thought someone should actually present the other side of the argument.

Moderator’s Note: Some of the forums on the Straight Dope Message Board are General Questions, Great Debates, In My Humble Opinion, and The BBQ Pit.

This thread is being moved to the penultimate item in that list.

Clearly, our moderator is not an editor. These issues are Great Debates, in my humble opinion.

But thanks for using the serial comma.

You’ve made a convert. Not that I was in any way committed to the “don’t use a comma after the penultimate in the series” rule, it’s just what I was taught; and not that I always give my allegiance to what I’ve been taught, insofar as some rules are inherently wrong. This one goes into the rebel-rules file alongside of the one about punctuation and quotation marks. Thank you.

Omitting the final comma is just wrong.

I’m an unapologetic prescriptionist.

Is it possible to plagiarize an apocryphal dedication?

I think I picked up my version from an article somewhere about serial commas, but I don’t recall where or when. Sorry. And that example has more power in the argument than the dedication, because it is a quotation, which cannot properly be re-written. Thus, as I mentioned in the OP, the error is created by the editor.

Spiritus Mundi: thanks for presenting the other side. I don’t know if I’ve come across that argument before. I grant is does have a certain amount of logic. But I think that’s about as far as I will go.

BrotherCadfael: I’m with you. I have a hard time understanding the position of descriptivists (dictionary editors, for example) who don’t feel the need to hold the line and prevent the decline of civilization by insisting that some things are just wrong. I don’t give a damn about human behavior: prostitiution, drugs, polygamy should all be legal, as long as you don’t scare the horses. But forming the plural with an apostrophe should be a hanging offence!

Another vote for using the “serial comma.”

While omitting the comma may be grammatically “correct,” I’ve always felt that, when faced with a choice between more than one acceptable way of punctuating a sentence, one ought to go with the choice (i) least likely to be ambiguous and/or (ii) least likely to cause a reader to stop, go back, and have to re-read the sentence. The serial comma meets both tests.

If you put the comma in, you’ll avoid ambiguities like “I leave my property to A, B, C and D” (So C and D each gets 1/4 – or only 1/6?), as well as the already cited “my parents, Ayn Rand and God.”

Second, maybe it’s just me, but when the comma’s left out, I often find myself saying “Huh?” and having to go back and re-read the list from the beginning to see where the “breaks” are. (Not if the list is “A, B and C” but in the really long sorts of lists you often find in legal documents.)

On the other hand, I can’t think of a single benefit to leaving the comma out (unless you consider writing or typing a comma to be too much work).

Ohmigod, I love you people.

I’m a major proponent of the serial comma, for the simple reason that if you get in the habit of always using it, you’ll never be ambiguous (unless you’re ambiguous for other reasons). Tullius came the closest to something I’ve been saying for years: Without the serial comma, you have to go all the way to the end of the sentence (and back again) to discern the writer’s meaning–and that just ain’t good writing.

This may not be the right reason, but I always use the comma as a little speed-bump in my head as I read. Like Tullius said, it screws up my timing when the last comma is left out. That is rude to the reader. Editing by definition should be about conveying the ideas properly to the reader. So leave the comma in.

You are too easy on 'em. Drawing and quartering sounds about right.

I get very annoyed at the misuse of “infer” and “imply”. This isn’t a case of “language evolving”, it is a case of people using the wrong damned word.

I’m with you, commasense–both about the serial comma, and about this issue being a Great Debate!

Nor could there be any sensible explanation. Your professor said that “it was no longer correct,” as if it used to be correct, but there had been a vote in the meantime? Sheesh.

There was a movement toward the “open style,” in favor of omitting commas, that never quite caught on:

Bryan A. Garner, A Dictionary of Modern American Usage 537 (1998), s.v. “punctuation” (internal cross-reference omitted).

What has pharmacology got to do with this thread? :wink:

I suppose I should have said prescriptivist. Thanks for the catch.