Serious physics question

Why is this not a “perpetual-motion machine?”

Before I begin, let me state clearly that I fully accept the laws of therodynamics. I do not for one second believe I have stumbled onto something astounding here. Rather, I assume I have either overlooked something important, or am misunderstanding the question. I need help in seeing where I’m going wrong.

(I would also respectfully request that those who do not accept Newton’s Laws please do not hijack this thread. Rather, please post your comments in Great Debates or The Pit or some other forum where the scientific method is not a prerequisite.)

Now, then…

I have always understood a “perpetual motion machine” to be a system that puts out more energy than it takes in as fuel. If this is a flawed definition, let me know. If not, read on…

Imagine a bathtub, pushed up against a wall. About two feet above the rim of the tub, affix two rods to the wall, jutting straight out across the tub. They should be about a foot or so apart. If you want to build a framework on the near side of the tub to hold those rods steady, be my guest.

Drape a bath towel over the two rods. The edge of the towel draped over the left rod should hang down about six inches; the edge draped over the right rod should fall into the tub. So basically what you have is an upside-down “J.”

Put a plug in the drain and fill the tub with water. Capillary action will draw water up into the towel, over the rods, and come dripping off of the short end. There is no “fuel” involved - the whole thing is powered by gravity and capillary action.

You could even put a small water wheel under the dripping end, attach magnets and wires, and generate an electric current. Granted, the output would probably be very small, but it’s still energy coming out with none going in.

So, where am I going wrong here?

One could argue that the water is a “fuel” of sorts, and it will eventually evaporate. But all you need do is seal off the bathroom, making a closed system.

Friction will eventually wear out all the pieces. Water moving through the towel will slowly erode it. The tub will eventually rust. But those are failings of the material, and not of the system. Do they really count?

Similarly, the Sun will eventually go supernova, calling a halt to the experiment. Long before that, earthquakes will topple the building. But again, those are external forces - do they really count as a system failure?

Of course, just because there is no “fuel” doesn’t mean there was no energy going into the system. It took energy to make the tub, the towel, the rods, even to mine the metal and pump the water. Do those energy costs need to be factored in? It seems to me the electricity you get out of the system might never make up for the production.

So, there’s my daydream. Punch it to pieces. Thanks.

– Beruang

This will not actually happen. This machine has been built and tested. The same capillary action that pulls the water into the towel will keep it from travelling out of the towel onto the rods. The water will draw up into the towels and stay there.

Amen. The most important thing here is that you are thinking.

Here’s a very good page on perpetual motion schemes, including the capillary action motor:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm

Andrew –

Thanks for the link! I will have to study it in more detail at some time that is not a Saturday morning. Howver, in my experience, a towel draped over the side of a tub will drip water onto the floor – the water does not just go up into the towel and stay there.

– Beruang

The towel over the edge of the tub drips because the dripping edge is below the level of water in the tub. The weight of water is pulling down on both sides, and there’s more weight outside, causing a siphon effect. You’d get out as much energy by drilling a hole in the side of the tub.

Your original setup has the free end of the towel higher than the water, so there’s less weight pulling the water over than pulling back, and the flow stops as soon as the towel has as much water as it can hold. Sorry, no free energy here.

And as galen said, keep thinking!

Thanks! Thinking is one of my favorite things to do, when I’m not working.

I have a towel draped over the tub right now; we’ll see how it works. I hadn’t thought that having the end of the towel lower than water in the tub would make a difference – once the water gets over the lip, gravity does the rest, right?

– Beruang

evaporation

many years ago i saw a perpetual motion machine in the smithsonian? i think
it was a ball bearing impacting on a series of spikes and the trajectories were calculated so that the ball bearing went towards another spike.
the only thing was that some energy must have been added to the recoil force to make up for losses.
it was in a glass case…so long ago i cant even recall where in the usa it was
it was in 1958
i was on a school trip.

mrcrow there is a sculpture like that at the airport in Boston. It also makes neat noises as the ball moves thru the sculpture.

The point about the end of the towel being lower or higher than the water: When the water level is above the end of the towel, it has potential energy (“head”) over the end of the towel. It basically pushes the water across the lip of the tub and then out the end of the towel.

That is how elevated water tanks make pressure for you so that when you turn on your tap the water comes out, even when the water line has to go over a hill before it gets to your house.

Probably nitpicking, but if, as you stated earlier, it is a closed system then the sun going supernova or earthquakes couldn’t interact with the system. At least I thing that’s right.

Cool, let us know how things work out.

Do you know of any websites that have pictures or videos of this machine? It sounds interesting.

The Franklin Institute has a similiar exhibit. There’s a display of the standard ideas for perpetual motion machines (over- balancing wheels etc). Signs explain the ideas behind each machine and why it doesn’t work. On the way to the next section, is a machine in a sealed case. A clear wheel (ICR if it was lucite, plexiglass, glass etc) is held by two long supports. Inside the wheel, metal balls are held in j-shaped channels. The wheel spins clockwise. When a channel reaches 3 o’clock, the ball within it falls from the hub of the wheel to the rim. When the channel reaches 9 o’clock, the ball falls back to the hub.

   The sign explains again that perpetual motion is impossible. The machine has a power source. Solar power(the machine is by a large window and the base is IIRC black), hidden motors, and several other possibilities are mentioned but no explanation of how the machine really works is given.