Seriously, how can anyone believe in religions like Christianity?

[Polycarp]

@Czarcasm

Nope.
Atheists take a stand because there is no data or evidence and thus, no belief system.

Raising this for general interest (you were part of the 1999-2000 debates so I know you’re clear on it already) –

This position is ‘soft’ or (as I prefer terming it) ‘pragmatic’ atheism. In short: since there is no (or inadequate) evidence for the existence of any supernatural being, the logical inference is to presume that no such entity exists. You have no more reason to ‘believe in’ God than I do in the Easter Bunny. In each case, we presume that the tagged entity does not exist except as a concept in the belief structure of others (in the EB’s case, small children).

Contrast this to ‘hard’ or ‘dogmatic’ atheism, which posits, unprovably, that there is not and cannot be any such thing as a supernatural entity to which the term ‘god’ may legitimately be applied.

(Personally, I believe in God because I feel that I have adequate evidence to have credence in His existence and benevolence – but I am not interested in defending that stance in a Pit thread).

[Spoke]

@mswas

I feel like I just wandered into an atheist tent revival.

Later, there will be dinner on the grounds.

And a softball game.

[thirdwarning]

@Lobohan

Atheism is not believing in a god. It’s the default state of humanity. There is no evidence for a god existing, so why should one believe in one?

Odd that the “default state of humanity” is very much the minority state of things in pretty much all of human history and human culture. Seems to me that the default would show up a little more.

[Gustav]

@thirdwarning

Odd that the “default state of humanity” is very much the minority state of things in pretty much all of human history and human culture. Seems to me that the default would show up a little more.

You’re not seriously suggesting that people are born with a belief in god?

[Frylock]

I’m also surprised people can believe the stuff mentioned in the OP.

I hope the OP is aware that there are a great many Christians who, like me, don’t believe any of the propositions he listed.

[wonky]

@Frylock

I’m also surprised people can believe the stuff mentioned in the OP.

I hope the OP is aware that there are a great many Christians who, like me, don’t believe any of the propositions he listed.

You don’t believe in the atonement?

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Tim_R.Mortiss

Well, atheism is a religion, too. And as this thread shows, just as fervent and dogmatic as any other.

:: checks forum ::

That statement is idiotic. Atheism fails pretty much every test that one could use to define a religion. It has no coherent belief system; in fact, it is not an belief system at all. It has no mythology. It has no sacred text. It has no ethical system. It neither prescribes nor proscribes any particular act. It has no founder, no priesthood, nor rituals, no hierarchy.

I will concede that some atheists are very passionate about the non-existence of God or gods and very hostile toward persons they think of as deluded or evil to believe otherwise. But so what? Some people are more passionate about things than others, or different things than others. Take me: I don’t believe in God, but I don’t think those who do are necessarily or even predominately stupid or evil. (Well, maybe predominately stupid, but only because Homo sapiens as a species is predominately stupid. :D)

Not all non-believers are as strident as Der Trihs. Some of us think Christians are freqently nice fellows and good company, and wish their myths were true.

–Skald, theoretical agnostic and practical atheist

[Chimera]

Personally, and I mentioned this in my LJ (which no one reads), I simply cannot understand how people can allow themselves to be so consumed with passion, anger and hatred over the beliefs of others. I have to concede that it is human nature - we’ve spent our entire history as a species wiping out people who didn’t agree with us on trivial matters.

But to be so angry because people believe in Christanity/Atheism/Capitalism/Communism/whateverthefuckyouwanttobeangryabout today - to the point of killing others, or simply to the point of warping your entire life around that anger…

Seriously, get the fuck over it already.

As I’ve said here and elsewhere: Treat all political, social and religious beliefs as nothing more than OPINION, and then respect that other person’s right to have their own opinion, even if it bears no relationship to what you consider to be reality.

[Frylock]

@jsgoddess

You don’t believe in the atonement?

This:

That had a “child” that was really himself, that he had to sacrifice to himself, to change a rule he himself made up?

does not express the doctrine of the atonement.

[Mijin]

@Chimera

As I’ve said here and elsewhere: Treat all political, social and religious beliefs as nothing more than OPINION, and then respect that other person’s right to have their own opinion, even if it bears no relationship to what you consider to be reality.

I agree, but I feel I should point out that it was not the point of the OP, nor anyone else on this thread (unless I’ve missed something) to vent anger at others* or tell other people what to believe.

I simply stated that I was surprised that anyone can believe in religions like Christianity.

I personally enjoy playing the piano, but if someone were to say “I don’t understand how people can enjoy playing piano”, how could I be offended? I can either try to tell them why I find it fun, or simply agree to disagree.

---

• OK, so I called someone a moron. But that was after he mis-stated the atheist position, for the nth time, after several people had tried to correct him. So the insult was nothing to do with his religion.

[wonky]

@Frylock

This:

does not express the doctrine of the atonement.

It expresses it in snarky tones, but how is it in error?

[Mijin]

deleted

[mswas]

@Gustav

You’re not seriously suggesting that people are born with a belief in god?

Are you suggesting they are born with an opinion on it one way or another?

[Dijon_Warlock]

@jsgoddess

I wanted to believe. Believing meant that things weren’t my problem. Believing meant that if someone’s life sucked, well, they could look forward to better later. Believing meant that I was loved even if everyone hated me, and that I couldn’t do anything bad enough to turn God against me. Believing meant that I belonged. Believing meant that there was structure and purpose. Believing meant that I was right and I could point to how right I was.

Believing met the problem of evil and got its ass kicked.

I think I want to kiss you on the lips.

Actually, contrary to an earlier poster (which I don’t recall and can’t be bothered to go back and check because I’m still swooning over the idea of kissing jsgoddess), I think we do come into the world “believing” in a God of some type: it’s our perception that there are things out there beyond our control, and “God” is one of the labels that we put on that idea.

A poster mentioned it was how we comforted ourselves about death, and that’s part of it, too. We may not parse it as “God” when we are young, but it is the same idea: the awareness of what exists that is outside of us.

[gonzomax]

thejesusmyth.com Here is one mans opinion on the Abrahamic religions.

[wonky]

@Dijon_Warlock

I think I want to kiss you on the lips.

Well, okay, but let me get a mint!

[Guinastasia]

@Dijon_Warlock

I think I want to kiss you on the lips.

Actually, contrary to an earlier poster (which I don’t recall and can’t be bothered to go back and check because I’m still swooning over the idea of kissing jsgoddess), I think we do come into the world “believing” in a God of some type: it’s our perception that there are things out there beyond our control, and “God” is one of the labels that we put on that idea.

A poster mentioned it was how we comforted ourselves about death, and that’s part of it, too. We may not parse it as “God” when we are young, but it is the same idea: the awareness of what exists that is outside of us.

Wouldn’t then your “god” be “Mother”?

[Little_Nemo]

People who believe in the existence of God do so without proof. They do it with nothing more than faith. People who do NOT believe in the existence of God have no more proof than do the believers. BOTH groups are acting on faith, and neither has a greater claim on being correct.

There are a hundred different religions out there. You believe ninety-nine of them are false but the 100th one is true. I don’t believe in any of the hundred. I’m at least consistent - I don’t believe the evidence of any religion. Can you explain why you don’t believe all the “evidence” that supports 99 religions but believe the same “evidence” that supports your favorite?

There is always Pascals Wager, which is a fairly compelling logical reason for believing in the existence of God, even without proof.

Pascal’s Wager has no logic behind it. You’re being asked to “wager” something you provably have - your life - in order to have a chance of winning something - a reward in an afterlife - when you have no evidence that there’s a prize or that you know what the rules of the game are. Maybe your worship of Jesus is just pissing off Allah and he’s going to punish you in the afterlife worse than he will an indifferent unbeliever like me. Or maybe when you die, God meets you and says “What Heaven? I gave you seventy years on Earth to enjoy life before you fade away into non-existence. Why did you waste them like you did?”

[Linty_Fresh]

Atheist here. I used to be a Catholic and had a mercifully brief fling with a Baptist fundamental church. I agree with Mijin’s OP to the extent that I believe that what he says is more or less how the bible plays out. If you’re going to take the bible as the sole spiritual truth, Christ was not a pacifist, a humanist, or even a believer in peace or love, and that holds true even if you concentrate on his own words and disregard the rest of the New Testament and along with all of the Old Testament. Jesus was very clear. He came to break up families and plunge the world into chaos, and if you weren’t with him and him only, you had a date with the lake of fire. That much is obvious, and IMHO, the main reason the rest isn’t is that he was crucified at 33 before he could solidify his philosophy/religion into something more concrete and become more well known.

That said, I don’t really have anything against religion. I have seen the bad effects of religion, and see them every day, but I’ve also seen the good side. The same religious beliefs that brought us the inquisitions has brought us Catholic charities (and we have laws against inquisitions now). The same religion that brought us suicide bombers has brought us the Red Crescent. The vast majority of believers do not in fact subscribe to the literal truth of the bible, and are actually pretty peace-loving.

And a lot of people believe in Christianity for perfectly good reasons. They believe that they should keep up with the charities, and they believe that they should help their neighbors, and as in the case of one woman I debated religion with, they believe that their five year old daughters will be waiting for them in heaven. As long as they behave themselves, who are we to try to talk them out of it? So what if it’s illogical? Are you telling me you’re 100% logical? Anyone? I’m sure as hell not, and I haven’t believed in Jesus, God, or anything else I can’t actually see that is bigger than bacteria in over 14 years.

Now don’t get me wrong; I believe in the separation of church and state, and I’m willing to fight for it. If a theist pushes me too hard, I’ll push back. But I also believe in respecting others even if I don’t agree with them. I believe that there are many, many smart theists out there (not to mention a few stupid, fucked-up atheists), and if they want to believe in the Great Candyman in the Sky, I don’t believe I will be getting in their way, even if what they believe doesn’t jibe with their book.

They’re going to believe in something. (You guys do know that you’re not going to unplug most theists no matter what you say, right?) Why not let the good theists believe what they believe and concentrate on the crazies? I don’t care if the Black Bible of some death cult tells its followers to worship Voltar, the God of Blood and Murder. If the cult followers choose to ignore the literal truth and embrace Toby, the God of Indecent Exposure and Disturbing the Peace, I’d count that as a plus. Same with the peaceful Christians, Jews, and Muslims, and whoever else is out there.

There are ways of dealing with the guys who go too far. We can deal with the Phelps’s and the scientologists, and the Church of the Creator, we’re doing a decent job against the whacked-out Muslims, and when it comes to Jack Chick . . . meh, let’s admit it. We all get a kick out of Chick. Do you want Chick to disappear? That’s good shit, right there.

Just my oh-so-humble opinion.

[Little_Nemo]

That had a “child” that was really himself, that he had to sacrifice to himself, to change a rule he himself made up?

On top of which, God is omniscient and exists outside of time. So at the moment he was making this rule he was also regretting it and changing it.