That’s a more rational explanation than the idea that it is a grand conspiracy. I am amenable to the idea of memetic virii.
So you do think that Atheism is a religion? Make up your mind funboy.
As to which of us is smarter, I’ll leave that to the peanut gallery. 
I think that Der Trihs exhibits many of the more loathsome traits of an Evangelical Fundamentalist so that his behavior is hardly distinguishable in character from the behavior of a religious person, that the behavior underlying it is the same. I think that the beliefs after a while are subsumed by the behavior and become merely a veneer, a vehicle for the pursuance of a hateful agenda.
No; it’s a self indulgent fantasy in most cases. The problem here isn’t that atheists don’t understand; the problem is your desire to pretend that there’s actually something profound about religion.
Very few people say that; I don’t. That’s mainly a lie the believers use to feed their persecution fantasies.
In other words, Christianity produces the exact opposite result of what you think it’s supposed to, but somehow that’s not a sign that your opinion of what Christianity is about is flawed. Christianity isn’t about humility; sneering at the unbelievers and dehumanizing them is part of the core values of Christianity.
Except the I DON’T think it encourages people to be better, it encourages them to be worse. You assume your own conclusion, that religion makes people better and assume that everyone must agree with you.
Evil principles, as far as I’m concerned. You could use the same “logic” to argue for the value of racism;; “binding people together” isn’t an innate good. Nor is it the only method of binding people together morally.
Nonsense; religion is not a necessity for morality, and much of the moral progress of humanity has been a war against the malignant influence of religion. If a society wants to become more civilized, one of the first things it has to do is throw out or marginalize religion.
OK, so let me get this straight. A bit of existentional angst about what happens after we die is “fear”? And rooting for a sports team is “insanity”? Have I got that about right, folks? Maybe it’s time to get a little perspective in life. Or at least switch to decaf.
And by the way, are you trying to tell me that you never think about death that way? Pull the other one.
And as for this:
No you haven’t, man. Neither have most of the theists out there. Pretty much all of them would be horrified at what you’re describing, except for the whole “secretly everyone is a theist” thing, but that’s not that bad, and in any case, you can refute it. If you actually ran into all of the above, oh well, sucks to be you, but maybe that’s why you should study up on it. It’s all about perspective. Not everything in the entire world has to do with you personally.
See, Trihs, once you get out of your little bubble, you find that whatever you think about religion, it has had a profound effect on civilization both for good and for bad. You cannot study history apart from it, and if you bothered to talk with the religionists who surround you in a decent manner, you just might find that they’re not all like the Phelps’s, let alone crazy.
But you don’t. You’re abrasive and unpleasant. You’re closed-minded. You’re willfully ignorant. You have your opinions, and if someone disagrees with you, then they’re crazy, and they’re stupid, and it’s everyone’s fault but your own, and that’s why you’re like the fundies. For a person who has such issues with religion, you’re sure unwilling to learn about it. I don’t even really think about religion that much, and I’ve read about it. That’s why I can debate it, and that’s why I can see where the other person is coming from. If I thought about it as much as you did, I’d damn sure make sure I knew what I was talking about.
But not you. It’s just too much of a chore bothering to learn about something you disagree with, huh? And so you’re stuck in your headspace. Just like the fundies you hate, who, if you actually bothered to learn something, you’d realize were in the minority. And you you lump everyone in with the same group. Just like they do. And so you remain every bit as ignorant as they are. Well fine, dude, but speaking as an atheist, I’m very glad I’m not you. See, Trihs, the reason you see fundies everywhere is that you and they are peas in a pod.
Are you willing to stand behind this statement? That’s it’s mainly a lie the believers use to feed their persecution fantasies?
Which is exactly why I believe Der Trihs is JUST as dangerous a some whacked out fundie Who decides its okay to kill an abortion doctor.
I acknowledge that I am - well, baffled may be a tad strong, but not too much - about the appeal of religion. So often people speak of comfort, security, and peace in terms that make me think of drug use. I get the sense of community - i just don’t know why they couldn’t form that community around something that pretty demonstrably exists, instead of something that certainly leans itself towards characterization as a group delusion.
But I’m not sure I understand what you are saying about scientific responses regarding the existence of the supernatural.
See, this is a BIG part of my problem with organized religion - which - given my upbringing, has largely been christianity - esp Roman cath. A good number of the crappiest human beings I have known have proclaimed themselves to be good christians, when IMO they fall far short in terms of all manner of what I understand to be ostensibly christian values. Maybe I just know a good class of atheist/humanist, but overall they seem to be more introspective, mor compassionate, and more concerned with issues such as fairness, equality, and social justice than most christians. Whatever humility you may attribute to some theoretical christians, in my experience the default setting is for christians to consider themselves to be better than non-christians, simply because of their church.
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As it is no force other than religion binds people socially around a shared set of moral principles. A tribe is bound genetically, a nation is bound by laws, but only religion binds people together morally. Pointing out the failings of large swaths of individual Christians is pointless, and it’s unfortunate that this passes for intellectual discourse in a lot of circles.
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I don’t see that it is pointless, if it contrasts the actual practice of religion, as opposed to what impress me as your ideals. And I disagree with your distinction between laws and morality. In any number of respects, laws dictate morality and reflect social values. Criminal statutes against theft and murder are not religious values, but they DO reflect a society’s morality.
That’s putting it mildly, to say the least. You like to shit on people when they are emotionally upset and vulnerable, don’t take mitigating circumstances into account, and generally are just a dick.
But I digress.
Absolute truth doesn’t exist anywhere? No place whatsoever?
Is that absolutely true?
Really?
As an atheist, it’s pretty clear to me. You get to believe you will see your dead loved ones again, that you don’t just “go to sleep” forever when you die, that you are somehow special, that whenever something bad happens it is really all “part of the plan.” Indeed, there is a whole lot to like about religion; that’s why it’s been historically so popular.
As humans it is nearly impossible for us to conceive of our own non-existence. Even as someone who had tried my best to come to grips with it, the only way I can really deal with it on a daily basis is bu doing my best not to think about it too much.
Nonsense. Those are all fairly common beliefs. The believers HATE atheists; we’re maybe a bit more popular than child molesters.
And when have I denied that it’s had a profound effect ? I just think that it’s been an overwhelmingly bad one.
Or, like quite few atheists I might find them making my life hell. I’m not stupid enough to admit to atheism to a believer who is in a position to hurt me.
Oh, please. If I’m not interested in becoming a scholar in something that has a multi-millennia long history of being utterly wrong, how does that make me “closed minded”?
No, I’m not, if for no other reason than the facts agree with me. If I say that people who claim the world is flat are either ignorant or stupid or crazy, does that make me just like the fundies ? Your argument is based on the false claim that there is a chance that they are right.
I’m unwilling to spend an indefinite number of years studying a demonstrably worthless subject to placate people who will simply keep saying that I haven’t studied enough unless and until I agree with them.
And which religion? And why ONLY religion? If I insisted that you study Japanese mythology before claiming that Oni were just a myth I expect you’d laugh at me. But I’m supposed to act like religion is a subject that deserves to be taken seriously, that has an actual chance of being true. I have a limited amount of time; why should I pick religion out of all the other blatant nonsense to study closely? Why not magic or healing crystals or Atlantis or psychic powers?
This isn’t about my alleged “close mindedness”. This is about me daring to treat a politically powerful myth like it is a myth. Just like everyone treats myths that aren’t popular; I just don’t restrict myself to the myths that are approved for mockery, like goblins or Scientology.
Oh, please. Most people in America are creationists.
Speak for yourself! I’m no where near as popular as child molesters.
I have issues with cannibalism. Does that mean I have to study it?
Apparently yes. If you can’t tell the difference between a German and a Korean by taste you aren’t in a position to criticise cannibalism.
The best way to conceptualize it is think about what it was like before you were born. That’s what it’s like when you die.
Dinsdale Laws are most certainly distinct from morality. Smoking marijuana is illegal, it is by no means immoral.
As far as the science of the supernatural. It’s trivial. It doesn’t matter whether Jesus is real. If belief in Jesus allows you to overcome imprinted beliefs that’s pretty miraculous. I’d reference the work of Dr. Timothy Leary on this one.
The failures of individual Christians to be humble doesn’t make humility not a Christian virtue.
MichaelQReilly Baffles some atheists. Better? Though I dare say you oversimplified it in a very condescending way. Part of the belief system here comes in the notion that of course it is just a delusion, and thus every interpretation you make will be filtered through the lens of ‘delusional’. It is very difficult to discuss these issues with people predisposed to be antagonistic. (Not saying you are) We have psychological barriers to knowledge, for each person those barriers are lifted in different ways.
There are people out there who would probably be murderers if not for their religious beliefs. One could argue that they as an individual do not need fairy tales to keep from being murderers. Well bully for them, that’s an argument from essence. They don’t seem to be aware of it, but they are saying that there is something essential in their character that makes them superior, they do not need fairy tales to keep from doing others harm. That may very well be the case.
Maybe what someone gets from religion is a sense of purpose, maybe it’s community, and maybe it’s not walking into the town square with a fully automatic modified AR-15.
RE: what do theists “get out of it.”
It’s like a drug. You can’t understand it unless you’re a theist. Something to do with the brain. Maybe genetic. But I do agree with the idea that maybe 20-30% of religious followers aren’t true theists in the brain. They just sorta go along with it.
Um, yes it does. If Christians don’t behave humbly, then Christianity doesn’t make people humble. And the last thing Christianity does is make people humble. The entire worldview of Christianity is antithetical to humility; it’s all about how Christians are right, everyone else is wrong, it’s the One True Faith and their god is the only god, and how their beliefs are more important than facts or reason or their own welfare or that of their families. Christianity is as far from being about humility as it’s possible to be.
It doesn’t baffle many. Religion is not all that deep.
I seriously doubt that; religion is constructed in such a way as to encourage murder, not discourage it. After all, what matters a human life if their soul will just go to an afterlife ? And when your “morality” is based on God’s Will, that means you have no morality at all since God is just a fantasy. If you want to kill, just tell yourself that God wants you to do so.
Nicely put.
You get a lot of shit on these forums Der Trihs, all these people who say stuff like “not all atheists are rabid, lunatic evangelists like Der Trihs…”.
But so far, I haven’t seen it. The only difference between you and other atheists seems to be that you haven’t signed up to the unwritten rule of “Even if you don’t agree with religion, you must revere it”.
It’s problematic considering a “me” outside of the bounds of my lifespan though.
The last time I was in the state “before I was born” I transitioned into the state of “being”. Can that happen again? Why not?
Not my experience, either personally or professionally. But then again, I know how to talk with people and treat them with respect as long as they treat me the same.
I’ve never tried to hide my atheism, and I was in the army shoulder to shoulder with Mississippi bible-thumpers who mentioned Jeezus four or five times in every sentence. I won’t say they didn’t take an interest in it or that I got along with everyone, but no one ever tried to hurt me in any way. But then again, I know how to talk with people and treat them with respect as long as they treat me the same.
Who said anything about becoming a scholar? If you’re willing to talk all the live-long day about religion and about how stupid it is, and about how crazy everyone is who believes in it, but you’re not interested in even reading a neutral book about it or at least trying to see how they might not be stupid or crazy . . . yeahhhh, I’d say that makes you closed-minded. And an asshole.
You set up these strawmen about religious nutjobs, who–while they certainly exist–do not represent anyone, and then when people call you on your bullshit, you just pretend to be the lone voice in the wilderness™, and people who don’t think exactly like you either don’t know what they’re talking about or don’t understand what you’re trying to say. What you do is easy, Trihs. It’s the easiest thing in the world. You don’t even have to know what you’re talking about.
No it isn’t. My argument is based on the fact that just because someone believes something that isn’t true, they aren’t stupid or crazy, and also they might have very good reasons for believing in it that you have to learn to address if you’re going to address the real issues. Oh, and by the way, you’re not claiming they’re ignorant. You’re claiming they’re stupid and crazy.
Taking your example of the world is flat. A few thousand years ago, people really did believe the world was flat. Did that make them stupid? Crazy? It made them ignorant, but you’ve gone wayyyy beyond that claim on these boards with regard to religious people. You’ve been calling them crazy. I’ll say it again, they’ve shown a lot more sense than you. Even most of the fundies. I’ll happily say that some of the bigger ravers are actually more whacked-out, but dude, we’re talking the fringe here.
OK, now you’re lying. I have never said that religion might be true. Ever. I haven’t even implied it. I’m not telling you to treat religion like it isn’t a myth. I treat religion like it’s a myth. That’s the definition of atheism. I’m not telling you anything. I’m calling you an idiot for thinking that everyone who doesn’t agree with you is mad and deficient. I’m saying that you’re a fool for just staying in your little mental headspace. What you do is lazy and cowardly.