Just so you know, it’s against the rules to change quotes, even (in this case) replying inside of them.
It’s better to quote the lines and reply to it outside of the box instead.
Thank you I was not aware of that. I do not like pulling out lines in quotes as that removes it from its context. I will just quote the entire text and reply after it.
It’s my understanding that a people can train their own service dogs. In that case, how are they/would they be certified? And do the dogs need continuing training, or refresher courses?
A friend had a dog that was allegedly trained to alert before she had a seizure. This dog, a rescued cocker spaniel, was trained by inmates in some correctional facility, with some fine-tuning after she got the dog. However, sometimes the dog alerted, sometimes the dog did not, and sometimes not in time. In one instance my friend collapsed into a seizure in a store and nobody could go to her aid because the dog got very protective and people were afraid of it. At that point she sort of lost her trust in the dog, but she continued to take the dog with her (when she wanted to) and tell people it was a service dog when it was convenient (in the same way people continue to use those handicapped placards after they’re healed, or when the actual tag owner has died, I guess).
But it seems to me that that dog, from the beginning, was not a well-trained service dog, or else they forgot one crucial piece of the dog’s training.
I have also run into a couple of very snarly guide dogs. I believe they were legitimate guide dogs because one of them was attached to a guy who was pretty clearly blind, the other was attached to a woman I know to be blind. In the instance of the woman I know–this is a couple who are both blind, but whose child, not blind, attended school with my kid–the couple did things that I personally would consider mistreating the dog, and this probably affected the dog’s behavior. But I got involved because a few people at the school wanted the dog banned from the premises because he’d scared their children. This dog snapped at people (but did not growl or bark, so its owner did not know). Tough situation.
The other one was when I saw a guide dog being ordered “forward” and then its owner kicked it because it refused. Well…it refused because “forward” would have taken it out into a very busy street. Describing quickly, it faced an area where there was a bus stop, two telephone poles, a stretch of chain-link fence, a couple of tires, and a gaggle of kids on skateboards. A person who could see could have navigated a safe course through this by asking a couple of people to move, but the dog couldn’t, and the dog owner obviously couldn’t see. I approached the guy to tell him that he was ordering his dog to do something dangerous and help, if I could, and first the dog growled at me, then the guy did. But he did change course. He did not walk into the street.
All this made me wonder how much training the disabled person gets, because in my personal view you don’t kick a dog or hit him with your white stick, even if he’s not a service dog. It seems like that could turn even a trained service dog into a dog that’s actually dangerous.
It is my understanding that part of a seizure alert dog’s training is to be protective and prevent people from “coming to your aid”, since the best course of action during the seizure is for bystanders to stay the hell away.
There’s too many morons out there who watched too many TV movies that will: try to shove things in an epileptic’s mouth, breaking their teeth and jaws; try to restrain the person, causing severe muscle injury, possibly breaking bones; or any other insane thing they think is proper protocol.
If you’re not a doctor or EMT, don’t do anything until after the seizure is over. The only thing bystanders should do is to drag things that may cause injury to the victim away from the victim. Don’t touch them at all.
I used to have seizures as a kid–thankfully whatever was wrong with my brain fixed itself. Every year on the Friday before the first day of school, my parents and I would meet with my teacher for that year, and have to explain to them what should be done, and what SHOULDN’T be done in the event that I started thrashing on the floor.
I got way off topic here…
I have worked with people who had seizures, and we’ve had lots of problems with bystanders doing things, including calling 911, and ending up sticking our clients with hospital bills, to trying to get to restrain them in sort of “basket” holds, so they wouldn’t break their arms (restraining them is what can actually cause them to break limbs).
The only time you should call 911 is if you know the person, and they have never had a seizure before, or if they hit their head, and are bleeding from the mouth or ears. The only time you should touch the person is if they fall into a seizure in some really unsafe place, like traffic; that would be really unusual, though, because most people have a sense of when a seizure is coming on. Some people know hours before, and some people know only minutes before, but usually soon enough not to try to cross a street.
Back to your regularly scheduled thread.
If a stranger has a seizure, we bystanders have no way of knowing whether they have had any before. Sorry if it “sticks them with a hospital bill,” but wanting random people to just ignore someone who has collapsed and is thrashing around on the ground is dumb. What if the person dies?
Where I live, they only charge you if they actually end up going to the hospital and if you are conscious, you can refuse to go.
It is the same where I live. The EMTs aren’t going to transport you while you’re seizing, and if you’re unconscious after a seizure, you probably need to be transported to the ER. EMTs are trained for medical emergencies and will wait a few minutes for you to get your bearings after a seizure. Calling 911 isn’t the problem, it’s the physical assault that people commit against epileptics and others with seizure disorders–that’s where the dog comes in and protects the person.
And yes. It is physical assault. You’re touching someone without their consent in a manner which is likely to cause them harm. It’s no different than cutting a hole in someone’s throat with a pocket knife because you think they’re choking and some stupid TV show said that’s what you should do.
Simple question: do you understand the legal concept of intent?
I do.
The person intends to touch the person having the seizure. The results of the contact do not have to be intentional.
Apparently you don’t. But i’ll just leave it at that.
I did get my assault mixed with my battery, but:
From: Battery (tort) - Wikipedia
So, I guess I actually do.
Good Samaritan laws in (every?) state exempt people who are rendering first aid on a volunteer basis (that is, not as part of their job) from assault and battery charges if their intent was not to cause harm.
Exactly.
I’m not sure that every single state has a good samaritan law, but in the United States, most of them do, and most are worded in fairly similar fashion. Here’s the one from California:
And, since Australia was specifically mentioned inPorchePine’s post, how about New South Wales:
So good luck suing someone for battery when they’ve made a good-faith effort to help out someone having a seizure.
Couldn’t it be reasonably argued that shoving a hard object into someone’s mouth is an act of gross negligence?
Anyhoo…we’re way off topic here.
Back to service dogs…
and in lots of countries too.
There is no service animal “certification” under ADA.
A “certification” for service animals was one of the proposals earlier in the thread. That idea is not (IMO) without merit, but it is not very practical.
Well somebody, somewhere, certifies them, otherwise these dogs would never be able to get on airplanes.
In reading some of the links here though I understand that even a bona fide service dog can be kicked out of a place if it misbehaves. I.e., the guide dog who left a trail of turds in the Safeway meat dept. The managers were only arguing about who had to pick it up. They seemed to think they had to let the dog stay in the store.
Nope.
"Verification of Service Animals
Under particular circumstances (see Example 1 below), you may wish to verify whether an animal accompanying a passenger with a disability qualifies as a service animal under Part 382. Other than service animals used as emotional support or psychiatric service animals, you must accept the following as evidence that the animal is a service animal:
The credible verbal assurances of a qualified individual with a disability using the animal,
The presence of harnesses,
Tags, or
Identification cards or other written documentation. (§ 382.117(d)).
Note:
Passengers accompanied by service animals may not have identification or written documentation regarding their service animals. Some service animals wear harnesses, vests, capes, or backpacks. Markings on these items or on the animal’s tags may identify it as a service animal, however, the absence of such equipment does not necessarily mean the animal is not a service animal. Similarly, the presence of a harness or vest on a pet for which the passenger cannot provide a credible verbal assurance may not be sufficient evidence that the animal is a legitimate service animal. See also Appendix III of this manual titled DOT Guidance Concerning Service Animals in Air Transportation."