Should I Train My Dog To Be A Seizure Dog So I Can Bring Her On The Bus?

This is basically an ethics question. Here’s my situation:

Four months ago I had a grand mal seizure. I was found in a ditch, sent to the ER as a Jane Doe, etc., etc., and after 24 hours in the hospital I recovered and went home. After many scans and analysis it was believed to be an isolated incident, but last month it happened again, so now I’m officially diagnosed as having a “seizure disorder.” I’m on drugs, I’m getting treated; I may never have another seizure or I may have another seizure tomorrow.

Seizure people aren’t allowed to drive, and I’m adjusting to all that, learning to use Seattle’s pretty decent bus system when I need to, walking more, etc. Anybody want to buy a gently-used hatchback? I don’t need it anymore.

I have a dog. Before my seizures, we made regular forays to the local parks and dog parks. She’s a pretty high energy dog, and I am definitely not a runner. Daily or twice-daily trips (by car) to the local park were the norm. Now, we have twice-daily walks around the block. The puppy is getting restless. And hell, I miss the park, too.

I do have the option of taking her on the bus with me, for a full adult fare ($1.25 one way). BUT, if she were a service dog – any kind of service dog – I could take her with me for free. And what is the definition of service dog? As far as I can tell: a dog that has a cape on that says “Service Dog.” Of course, they’re supposed to be trained to do stuff for you – but the definitions are so vague and the rules government employees have to follow so restrictive that no one dares challenge the legitimacy of the role.

Seizure dogs do a number of things. The highly-valued ones can actually predict seizures. (It’s an inherent trait that mine doesn’t have.) Some can be trained to carry or retrieve emergency drugs. Some have been fitted with emergency buttons that they’re trained to hit to summon an ambulance. Some are trained to bark for attention when they observe that their person is having a seizure. To be honest, none of these is anything I would plan to train my dog to do. About the only legitimate service I can see her perform is one of visibility: when I was found in a ditch, several people probably thought I was a drugged up/drunk homeless person. If I had had my dog with me with a big green “service dog” label, maybe I would have received help sooner.

Washington’s Service Dog rules:http://hum.wa.gov/generalInfo/faq_serv_animal.htm
What a Seizure Dog is supposed to do: http://www.epilepsy.com/articles/ar_1084289240.html

So here’s the ethics question: Would I be scamming the ADA and people with legitimate needs for service dogs in doing this? I don’t need a service dog, but it would save me a ton of money and/or improve my and my dog’s quality of life. I am not planning on paying tons of money to get some highly-trained pedigreed dog. I am talking about buying a cape and maybe taking some sort of obedience/training class if I can figure out any service my dog might be useful for in this situation.

So what say you? Legitimate need? Good enough for government work? Scummy way to scam the system?

I understand your point of view, and if I were in your position, I might be tempted to do the same. But based on what you’ve said, I don’t think it would be honest of you. Most service dogs are specially trained and highly valued, and I think it’s a pretty slippery slope you’re on as to the legitimacy of your case. If you can have a seizure dog to just wear the vest, can any diabetic have a dog with them at all times in case they have a diabetic seizure, etc…

I think it would be dishonest. You wanted opinions - there’s mine.

By the way, do you have a bracelet or necklace with your medical information on it? Might consider it, in case, god forbid, you’re ever in that situation again.

Real service dogs aren’t trained by their users so don’t kid yourself that you’re following the rules.

Beyond that, you’d probably get away with it. I’d assume most bus drivers are going to allow what appears to be a legitimate service animal onto a bus and aren’t going to ask for documentation.

I really don’t see what harm it would do, as long as the dog is well trained in general and not obnoxious on the bus. It might be a little dishonest, but it seems more like a “white lie” to me than a true offence.

IMHO it’s dishonest and selfish. Your’re defrauding the bus company and making life more difficult for everyone with a real service animal. The only reason you’re perpetrating this fraud is to save yourself a $1.25 bus fare. Why not go all the way and buy a white cane and pretend to be blind? You’d save yourself $2.50 that way.

Also remember that real service animals–at least the ones I’ve been acquainted with–are not just trained to perform their tasks. They’re also highly trained to behave in public. If there were any chance whatsoever that my dog would start barking inappropriately, or jumping on people, or other fairly normal yet annoying dog behaviors, I certainly wouldn’t try to claim it’s a service dog.

Don’t. Please.

People who do this sort of shit piss me right the hell off. And, while I have not needed or been involved with a service dog myself, I have two friends who train them. One works in the behavioral area, handling pretty much any type of service dog before they go to specialized training, the other specifically handles guide dogs for the blind. It pisses THEM off, too. They and the dogs work HARD to get certified, and you want to pass your mutt off as one of them just to save a buck or two?

Service dogs are highly trained and have specific exceptions to the rules extended to them precisely because their training is so rigorous and controlled. A service dog – a legitimate one – can be confidently expected to behave in public. It doesn’t matter how well YOU train your dog, you cannot match the training a service dog has unless you’re in the biz yourself. And by attempting to pass your dog off as a service dog, you’re diluting the efforts made by everyone else.

True story (I was there): at a local restaurant, an old lady brought her yappy little lapdog in with her, claiming it was a service dog for her husbands ‘social anxiety disorder’. The little shit did just that, right on the carpet. The manager had it cleaned up, but claimed he couldn’t do anything – they said it was a service dog, so by God it must be a service dog, and he wasn’t allowed to ask for proof.

Myself and fully half the other patrons in the restaurant walked out. I’ve been back since, and asked, and now their policy is that a service dog must carry identification, and they CHECK. (And legit service dogs DO have identification proving they are such.)

You did not just go there.

I’m currently training a service dog. It is more work than you know. First of all, service dogs don’t “just wear a cape”. They are trained to do specific tasks. That’s the definition of a service dog. Not the cape.

Does your dog relieve on command? Does it have a habit of chasing balls, squirrels, etc? Does it like to play with other dogs or seek attention? Can it actually do anything to help you in the event of a seizure?
Are your answers Yes, No, No, and Yes?

I didn’t think so. If you do it, you’re a liar and a cheat.

I’m wondering what sort of trasnit company allows non-service animals on their buses.

This is illegal, and no, legit service dogs do not have any kind of collective identification, nor are they required to carry any.

Bolding mine.
The restaurant owner is, in fact, able to exclude a service animal that is “posing a direct threat to the health or safety of others”. I don’t know about you, but dogshit in a restaurant seems like a health threat to me. Cite :

The Toronto Transit Commission, for one. (Not during rush hour. And you don’t have to pay a fare for them.)

I used it to take my pooch across the city one Sunday (a bus and three subways). Every TTC employee we saw absolutely loved him, and in fact the first one was so charmed she let me through without paying at all.

While I agree that you shouldn’t attempt to defraud the bus company by simply putting a cape on the dog, I don’t agree that you don’t need a service dog. Yes, you do - at least as much as anyone else with a seizure disorder could benefit from one. You do have a disability, even if you don’t want to think of it that way.

Yes, I’d be annoyed if you took a grant to get one of hawksgirl’s expensively raised and trained dogs for free, because you don’t need that level of service, but I don’t see anything wrong with taking your dog to obedience school, getting whatever certification your state requires (if any) and then putting her to work. Pressing a life alert button isn’t that hard to train - it’s not like you need her to do your laundry. And yes, she *could *help you if you fall down unconscious in a ditch again. Even without the button, she can be trained to stand over you so you’re not alone and bark for attention. Why would you just want her to just stand there when she could be actively useful with a week or two of training? (Not to minimize hawkgirl’s work. A lot of services are a lot harder to train. But “stay” and “bark for help if your owner is unresponsive” are not two of the harder ones, but they could save your life.)

Train the dog, make sure she’s got the temperament and obedience level to be civilized around other people, dogs, cats, squirrels, etc. and if she does, put her to work. Once she’s working, she’s entitled to service dog perks.

It didn’t sound to me like he wanted to train it to do anything in case of a seizure. He just wanted to take it around with him for free. If you want to get him trained and certified, go for it. Find a certification organization and proper training beyond obedience. But just calling a pet a service dog is wrong.

I’m afraid I have to vote for “scummy way to scam the system,” because you have very honestly told us that your motivation is not to train your dog to assist you but to avoid having to pay the fare. Further, your dog is NOT a service dog, and it seems pretty unlikey you could actually TRAIN it to be a service dog, since (a) “training a pet” isn’t how the whole service dog thing works and (b) you admit your dog isn’t really suited for it anyway. So basically all you could do is drape a service dog cape over your dog and assume they wouldn’t ask for confirmation – which they won’t. And that would be a lie, plain and simple, no different that if you put on sunglasses and asked for the disabled fare because you were blind.

Although, speaking of “disabled fare,” it appears you would qualify for a reduced fare due to your condition, which from here (PDF file) looks like it would be a disability. It also looks like that reduced fare would cost you a big quarter AND your animal pays the same fare you do. To be honest, it further looks like they make it a bit of a pain in the ass to get the reduced fare – you have to fill out an application which your doctor has to help with and you have to go get a special picture ID – but it seems like the savings to you would be significant, especially since you’ll be on the bus a lot more.

So I’d suggested you get the impaired/disabled fare discount for both you and your dog. That would save you more money that paying full fare and bullshitting them about your dog’s status, AND you could do it on the up and up. :slight_smile:

The MBTA in Boston lets you take animals on buses, subways, commuter trains, etc as well.

During rush hours you can take only service animals, or small animals in carriers or on your lap. No large non-service animals during rush hours.

Non-rush-hours your animals just have to be leashed or in a carrier. You don’t have to pay a fare for your animals but they aren’t allowed to take up a seat.

Right, I agree with you. However, it appears as though the OP’s state does not have any licensing requirements for service dogs:

'Licensed" means the state thinks the applicant has met the requirements for the license, whatever those are. “Certified” simply means it’s completed someone’s training program which is approved by the state board of education. I could do a one weekend “Certification” in Dog Service and the dog would be certified but certainly unqualified to be of real use. The state doesn’t approve schools based on whether their curriculum is any good or useful, but on financial stability so as not to risk losing students money before producing said certificate. (I ran a school in IL for a while training massage therapists - we “certified” them, the state “licensed” them. Exhausting.)

So we agree in the basics: pets are not service animals, and shouldn’t be promoted as such. I agree that it ought to do something beyond stupid pet tricks, I’m just not sure how MUCH training the dog needs to *ethically *be a working dog. Legally, according to the State of Washington, it’s however much the owner thinks it needs, apparently.

I agree with the posters who are saying that if you actually have your dog trained to do something then calling him a service animal is perfectly ok. Additionally, I agree that you could benefit from having your doggie trained with a few skills just in case. The dog doesn’t need to be able to do double entry tax accounting for you, but certainly the basics like WhyNot suggested would be a good idea.

However, if you don’t train your dog at all, and just buy a cape. Well, then you’re a liar and a cheat. Not cool.

That’s true, but we’ve raised four guide dog puppies, and for each we had a letter stating that they were allowed into restaurants and the like. They also had official Guide Dogs for the Blind coats. I don’t think we’ve ever had to show the letter.

We started training all of them at six weeks, and we had to follow a very rigorous training protocol. After we got done, Guide Dogs gave them their real training - ours was socialization. Half of the dogs get career changed, either due to health reasons or because they were distractable. Training involves leading the dogs over food, and making sure they don’t go after it.

The OP might think about seeing if his dog could be trained, or, if not, seeing if he can get a real service dog. But saving $2.50 is a pretty flimsy reason for fraud.

Our last puppy is now a breeder. We have her, but she doesn’t qualify for getting into places any more, and we don’t take her - except to the grocery store where they love her, and are happy to let her in anyway. We wouldn’t take her to a restaurant or on a bus, despite the fact she is still well trained.

It’s true that some organizations do provide letters and such, but they’re not a collective thing. That is to say, Guide Dogs for the Blind may have them as a convenience, but dogs trained through other organizations or individuals may not. Sometimes people will print out a copy of the relevant ADA text and carry that around with them, sometimes they’ll make a little laminated card with the relevant law, and so on–but it’s a common misconception that some entity, somewhere, oversees and licenses service dogs as a whole. I had a friend get kicked out of a Target in California with her service dog because the manager insisted that all Target stores in California required service dogs to carry a specific license that only Target stores recognize and is only required in California :confused:. The manager was making a scene and she was too embarrassed to argue.
Anyway, all I wanted to point out was that it’s patently untrue that service dogs have to carry any kind of ID or be wearing a cape to be legit, and that furthermore it’s illegal per the ADA for a business owner to demand proof or to deny entry for lack of proof. They can ask if the dog is a service dog, and what tasks the dog is trained to perform, but nothing beyond that. They are also welcome to kick the animal out if it’s a nuisance.
Also, someone else commented that “owner trained pets are not service dogs” and that’s patently untrue as well. Many folks train their own dogs for the tasks they need accomplished.

I’m with WhyNot on this one–if your dog is suited to the task, and you thoroughly train your dog, then why not? You do have a disability and dogs can recognize the signs of an oncoming seizure and be trained to react. You have to understand that it’s not just a matter of training the dog to recognize seizures, but training the dog to be well-behaved in public with details like parking itself under your chair or table well out of the way of foot traffic, not paying attention to anyone or anything else but you or the task at hand, not bothering people, not stealing food, so on and so forth. The dog has to be extremely reliable, can’t have any aggressive tendencies, and should be clean and immaculately groomed at all times to reduce the concern about allergens.
It’s a long and difficult process to train a dog to that level. If you do it, you’d better do it right, but just getting a cape and calling it a service dog does an enormous disservice to working dogs as a whole. Folks have worked long and hard to get service animals allowed in public places, and the last thing people with legit service animals need is some schmuck like the bitch in the restaurant with her crapping little dog to spread a bad name for service dogs in general, and make it that much more difficult for the next person who comes along and wants to bring their well-behaved service animal into the restaurant or on the bus.

More or less, alice_in_wonderland, this is the direction I think I am headed. **WhyNot **made some good points. I don’t really want to scam the system, because I do believe that service dogs are a good thing and don’t want to screw things up for anybody who has them.

I don’t see a need for a highly-trained dog like **Hawksgirl **is training. (By the way, what a bizarre set of criteria! Do you seriously train your dogs not to want to play? I couldn’t support that.) But I think I will do some more research on local service dog organizations and see what programs are available. There must be some certification programs I can put my dog into, legitimately.

And I hereby confirm that I will NOT simply buy a cape and attempt to pass her off as a real service dog. Thank you all for your opinions.