I have a seventeen year old student that has changed her mind about entering the military. She raised her right hand, took the oath, and her mother signed a document. The student also signed a contract. Can this student change her mind and not enter the military? (Army)
Some info from a usenet thread that may be useful -
Hmn, I’m in the UK but I’d imagine this must have happened before, perhaps quite a lot. Seventeen year-olds being what they are. It may be that she could get her doctor to write something saying she was depressed or confused at the time, or had become depressed since signing it (if she really, really doesn’t want to go, she might well become depressed about it sooner or later).
I don’t see what the point would be in the army pushing, though. As I understand it armies don’t tend to want recruits who really don’t want to be there, it makes everything about twenty times more difficult for everyone. There may be a fine or something though, I think that’s what happens here.
I should have posted the link from the top of the thread
Having scanned the thread it’s a pretty fascinating subject, and the respondents seem pretty authoritative and provide legal cites.
The GI Rights Hotline may be of some help here.
I forgot to add… Based on the cites and applicable law, it appears that regardless of her being 17, if the Army really wants her, she’s eiher going to be in the Army or in a stockade (ie she’s screwed) . The discussion is an eye opener (for me at least) about a minor’s ability to contract and the legal codes governing this.
My mothers friend at work thirty years ago had a son who was having some problems - nothing bad, but literally hanging out with the wrong crowd - his friends were all ex cons or soon to be cons. She signed him into the army when he was 17. Just as when you need your parents permission to do certain things - get married or enlist, sometimes your parents can do things for you even if you don’t want it. (By the way, he eventually came to like the army and became a 20 year man).
Taking that oath is a relatively big step, but my friends in the military tell me that with the volunteer army, people who have changed their mind before training have a relatively high basic training failure rate, and can receive a either an honorable or general discharge for a number of reasons. The key is to both be honest and make an obvious, sincere (or really convincing) effort at training and adjusting to military life. Once you get past basic and into more advanced training it becomes much more difficult. Probably the worse thing to do is argue and have a general bad attitude is a sure way to spend your entire military career in real misery.
As a Naval Officer (US), maybe I can shed some light on this. Botton line - if she really doesn’t want to go, they won’t make her go. I’m sure that they will put some pressure on her, as a lot of people have taken a lot of time to recruit her, do paper work on her, verify her potential for clearance, medical checks etc. But military doesn’t want people in the military who don’t want to be here. This is why talk of the draft is so ridiculous. Although some in Congress favor the draft, DoD can’t stand it.
One caveat. If she received funds to join the military, i.e. college payment etc., that will change the equation.
Maybe it’s like checkers. Did she take her finger off the contract?
Be careful on this, though.
If she weasels out of her delayed entry obligation, but decides later to join, she might find a big black mark on her record, and recruiters who won’t touch her.
For obvious good reasons, too. What if she becomes disaffected again in Iraq or Afghanistan? If it happens there, she could put the lives of herself or others at risk.
Her decision now should be final and irrevocable.
I have to second what Mr. Moto says here. What she decides to do says a lot about who she wants to be. You have to decide if you want to be taken seriously in life, and that limits your options for changing your mind about your promises. Okay, she’s 17 and has made a mistake, it could be the last bad mistake she’ll ever make in her life, but that’s not the way to bet. Better to hold her head up and be proud, suck it up for 4 years or whatever she signed on for, and learn all she can in that time. When it’s time to re-up or get out, she gets another chance to decide who she wants to be now. You never know, she might have carved out a place that she likes, or she might move on and say “Now for the next phase.”
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Satch
When I was seventeen (the summer before my senior year of high school), I did some soul searching and things didn’t look good. I wanted to go to college, but there was no way my dad was paying for it (my mother was deceased). My step mother and I greatly disliked each other. I knew I was moving out ASAP. My options seemed so limited that I stopped by the Army recruiters’ office and took a pre-ASVAB (spelling?). The recruiter encouraged me to take a physical and the real test. It seemed like the thing to do. Hell, I liked cars and one recruiter had a Firebird and the other had a Corvette.
I think I forged consent on one of the documents from the recruiter. I told my parents that I was staying with a friend for the weekend and took the physical and test. I didn’t want my step mother to have anything to say in the matter. I pretty much maxed the test and had the entire list of MOS’s available. The physical and the entire day of waiting around sucked so bad that I really didn’t want to waste my time. I figured I would pick something and get out of it later if I changed my mind.
Looking back, I should have waited. If I wanted to sign up, I should have taken a program that was available then (mid-80’s) to become a helicopter pilot. They called the program high school to flight school. The problem was that it was a four year commitment and had no Army College Fund, only the GI Bill (or maybe vice versa). Instead I took Explosive Ordnance Disposal, since it was only for three years and had full college benefits. It sounded really cool too! (I also knew someone in EOD at the local Army base.)
Please hang with me here, I do have a point.
During my senior year of high school, I discovered that there was something called student loans. I could borrow money to go to college instead of trading three years of my life. I talked to my recruiter about getting out of it, and he said there was no way. I talked to my high school guidance counselor. He said he would research it and make some calls. He also told me there was no way out of it. Summer came and I made my tearful goodbyes and went off to basic training.
A month later I found out that one of my classmates who was also on delayed entry changed his mind (his parents bought him a new truck to bribe him) and easily got out of it. I was crushed by this news. I don’t know who lied to me, but for a few agonizing days as I was in basic training and my now-ex-girlfriend was seeing another guy (and using my car to do it), I considered using my upcoming training to get revenge on both the guidance counselor and the recruiter.
Things turned out ok. I didn’t like being in the Army, but I had a cool job. I was honor grad at every military school I went to. I made sergeant in just over two years. I served my three years and left with an honorable discharge. To my surprise, there were no tricks in getting the college money and I got my bachelor’s degree. I feel that I grew up in my time in the Army. I have nothing but respect for anyone who serves. I am proud of that time, but I can’t say that I would do it again given the chance to change things.
I feel that I lost out on the end of my childhood and the beginning of my adulthood. By the time I came home for good, all of my friends had moved on and I needed to start over. I’m now in my mid-30’s. I have a house and a decent job, etc. Although I’ve now had a steady girlfriend for over two years, I’ve never been married and I feel that I’m way behind where I wanted to be in the family aspect of my life. I think this “starting over” period is one of the reasons. Naturally, my personal make up has something to do with it too. :rolleyes:
To the OP, jacksen9, I say this. If your student doesn’t want to go, get her out of it. I wish I could tell you exactly how. I know it is or at least was possible. I also fully believe that Army would rather end things now than later. They don’t want to waste the money on someone that doesn’t want to be there. Whatever you do, don’t let her do the final swear in for going on active duty.
Feel completely free to totally ignore the people who are using terms like “weasel out”, etc. It’s her life. A lot of things go through a teen’s mind. I don’t think changing her mind now says much about her overall makeup or future. “Suck it up for 4 years” just doesn’t fly with me. That’s almost 25% of her life to this point.
I’m sorry for the book above, but I kind of wanted you to know that I have some experience with what I speak. Good luck. Feel free to email me with how it turns out.
She met with her recruiter yesterday and told me that it didn’t go well at all. It sounds like she is getting a lot of pressure. Her mom is helping her with this but apparently her mother signed a document that granted consent. Her mother says she misunderstood the contract. They will be meeting with the recruiter’s captain today. Hopefully this will work out with a happy ending. I can’t imagine the Army wanting people that are unwilling. If she is unable to get out of this commitment, I will encourage her to do her best, do the time, get the benefits, and get on with her life. I really appreciate all of your thoughtful and informed answers.
An uniformed answer, I’m afraid, but it looks like she needs to kick up more of a fuss. Per spifflog’s post (note his credentials), I guess that the situation is that some people want her to join (because it helps them meet budget), but not enough to inflict an obviously 100% unwilling person on other people (the ones at boot camp that’ll complain).
I assume that she can always threaten to flunk boot camp. Presumably, 17 or 27, if you join the Army you have to meet a basic minimum. If they know in advance that you won’t meet this (either becase you can’t or, in this case, because you will intentionally not), then it’s in their interest not to accept you.
BTW, the mother sounds like she’s full of shit. How can you not understand a contract to join the military? Still, playing the stupid but determined-to-do-right-by-her-daughter mother can’t hurt.
jacksen9, how did it all go with the recruiter’s captain?
It is wrong to break an oath.
If she has already had the physical and taken the oath and entered the delayed enlistment program then she has already passed up several opportunities to back out. Before you raise your hand and take the oath you are asked again if you wish to back out.
Almost everyone has second thoughts as soon as they take the oath. I was scared to death from the time I took the oath to the time they started yelling at me in basic training. Then I was scared more.
It’s natural.
Why is your student looking to back out? Without letting your prejudice get in the way, find out if she is just scared of the unknown or has real moral objections. The military is not, necessarily, a bad thing for a young person to join. And, in contrast to a previous poster, I did not feel like I lost my late childhood and early adulthood.
If your student is scared of the unkown, which is natural, find a veteran that can explain what she will likely go through. Find three veterans so she can get a wider range of views.
If it is a real, honest, moral objection she has, get her in touch with a military chaplain. If that doesn’t work, contact your state representative or congressperson. Politicians love to kick the military on behalf of the poor, inexperienced youth from their districts.
Personally, though, I think that she should suck it up, go to basic training and enjoy her newfound life in the military.
She can refuse training in boot camp and get an entry level separation. Basically if you just refuse to do any of the training or follow any orders in Boot, they’ll kick you out. They scream at you a lot, and they tell you it’s their decision, not yours, but they will let you go. I saw it happen plenty when I was in basic. Once you’re out, though, you’re classified as “unfit military duty” and you can’t get back in.
At least that’s how it was in the 80’s when I was in. Maybe it’s changed now.
There are such things in this world as honor and integrity. She made the promise, she should bust her ass to keep it and do the best she can.
A seventeen year old is capable of understanding that basic concept. If she weren’t willing to do it, she shouldn’t have made the promise in the first place.
It’s wrong also to steal a bar of candy.