Severus Snape (Spoilers)

Cafe Society
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[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
Not really. Dumbledore could have meant that nobody lasted more than a year consecutively. Quirrell teaches for a year, takes a year off to study vampires, and then comes back for the first book. So, Dumbledore still has to find a new Dark Arts teacher each year for that time. Nobody sticks around for more than a year.
[/QUOTE]

Indeed, given that there were rumors but no definite fear of the post (yet, although it was developing), probably there hadn’t been a constant stream of missing/dead/incapaitated teachers of Defense Against the Dark Arts.

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He could also have been teaching something other than DAtDA in his prior years. Or Hagrid might have met him (on the occasion of Quirrell being at Hogwarts in June or early July to interview for the post, and paying courtesy calls upon the staff members after receiving and accepting Dumbledore’s offer) and formed his impressions then…

Sure would like to see what Ms. Rowling has to say for herself on this matter, though.

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So when did he get the opportunity to be scared of the students, after he got back but before Hagrid made that statement?

Zakalwe, I think the spoilers are mostly for material in Half-Blood Prince, which it’s conceivable someone might not have read yet. I know I personally haven’t been worrying too much about spoiling Philosopher’s Stone here.

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Concerning Quirrell - I think the most logical explanation is that he was teaching at Hogwarts before book 1, but was not teaching Defense Against the Dark Arts. I see nothing in the books to contradict this theory.

Concerning Severus Snape, my theory for a long time (I’ve probably posted this on the boards already, and several people have posted it in this thread also) has been that Snape was in love with Lily Potter. But now I have a different, secondary idea. I’m going to expand on this because I know you all are dying to hear what I have to say.

First of all, there is the theory that Snape has managed to totally fool Dumbledore all these years. Sorry, that theory is rejected out of hand. Snape was once a Death Eater, but no more. (By the way, I think this might explain his desire to teach DADA - he might have thought that either Voldemort’s curse is gone since Voldemort is “dead”, or else that the curse would not apply to him since he has the Dark Mark and is skilled enough to fool even Voldemort into thinking that he is still loyal to the Dark Lord.) To answer the OP, Snape went to Hogwarts on Voldemort’s orders, but stayed voluntarily.

So we have put aside the idea that Snape has fooled Dumbledore. I think that any explanation of Snape’s actions has to start from this point (from Half-Blood Prince, chapter XXV). This is Dumbledore speaking:

Why would Snape be so remorseful?

a) He was a Death Eater but opposed to killing “innocent” people on principle? I don’t think so, a Death Eater should not be surprised by Voldemort committing a murder.

b) He would be sorry that Voldemort wanted to kill James Potter? Unlikely, many people have mentioned how Snape hated Harry’s father. However, and this is something that just occurred to me recently, we must not forget that Harry’s father once saved Snape’s life (as described in Prisoner of Azkaban: Sirius played a “joke” on Snape and told him how to get to the Haunted Shack, and James went after Snape and brought him back before Lupin, in his werewolf form, killed Snape.) And as Dumbledore mentioned to Harry at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban, saving a wizard’s life creates some kind of obligation, in particular Wormtail / Peter Pettigrew now has a debt towards Harry since Harry stopped Lupin and Sirius from killing Mr. Pettigrew. So Snape’s remorse would be related to the debt he owes James Potter.

c) He would be sorry that Voldemort wanted to kill Lily Potter? Yes, if he had been secretly in love with her. This was my original and still favorite theory. In Snape’s Pensieve memory, he insults her and calls her Mudblood. That is somewhat understandable since he was so angry at the time - he probably would be saying things he didn’t mean. Let us not forget that in the memory Lily Potter was defending him. Horace Slughorn tells Harry “no one could have known your mother and not loved her - she was so smart and funny”. Finally, in one of the books (Prisoner of Azkaban again?) Aunt Petunia reveals knowledge of Azkaban being the wizard prison, and when Uncle Vernon is surprised that she knows this, Aunt Petunia says “I heard that awful boy telling Lily about it.” Who was that awful boy? One might assume James Potter, but could the “awful boy” have been Snape, and could Snape and Lily have had a friendship?

My first choice is that Snape loved Lily, second choice is Snape’s obligation to the wizard (James Potter) who saved his life. This explains his change of heart and why he left the Death Eaters.

Now, there is obviously a reason for Dumbledore’s trust that has not been revealed to us yet. (Notice the significant pause in Half-Blood Prince, chapter XXV when Harry Potter asks Dumbledore “why do you trust Snape?”) The answer is (I think I’ve probably also posted this already on the boards): Snape, to redeem himself and assuage his guilt, made an Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore that he would protect Harry Potter. This is why Snape has always watched over Harry: saving him during the Quidditch games in Philosopher’s Stone when Quirrell/Voldemort was trying to kill Harry, following Harry into the Haunted Shack in Prisoner of Azkaban, searching for Harry in the forbidden forest in Order of the Phoenix when Harry and Hermione escape from Umbridge by putting her in the path of the centaurs, preventing a Death Eater from harming Harry during the final pursuit on the Hogwarts grounds at the end of Half-Blood Prince.

I shall be proved correct on 21 July 2007.

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Oh, I forgot to say this - for those who can’t accept the Snape in love with Lily approach, here’s another idea for you:
Why did Narcissa Malfoy go to Snape at the beginning of Half-Blood Prince to ask Snape to protect Draco? What made her think she could persuade him to circument Voldemort’s orders? Could Snape have been in love with Narcissa as a young man? She would have been a more logical choice as a potential crush for Snape, and even a Death Eater is probably a sucker for blondes.

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[QUOTE=Fiver]
What happens if you make an Unbreakable Vow that conflicts with an Unbreakable Vow you’re already under? Has that been addressed?
[/QUOTE]
As soon as you break one of the vows, then you die.
e.g.:
I vow to get an Outstanding in my History of Magic O.W.L.
I vow to fail my History of Magic O.W.L.

As soon as you take the test, you are doomed! When the owl arrives with your grade, your death is imminent, regardless of what the envelope contains.

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Well, there’s only 4 months to wait.

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I wanna come live on your planet, where July follows February by only four months.

:stuck_out_tongue:

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[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried]
As soon as you break one of the vows, then you die.
e.g.:
I vow to get an Outstanding in my History of Magic O.W.L.
I vow to fail my History of Magic O.W.L.

As soon as you take the test, you are doomed! When the owl arrives with your grade, your death is imminent, regardless of what the envelope contains.
[/QUOTE]

Are you both dead and alive until you open the envelope?

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[QUOTE=Petey]
Are you both dead and alive until you open the envelope?
[/QUOTE]
A question that has been much debated over the ages. I will have to refer you to “Quantum Spells” by Incertus Schroedingus, available in the restricted section of the Hogwarts Library.

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Pfeh. There’s no debate to be had, as to the victim’s state of aliveness. It’s when you try performing the incantation for determining the cause of death that you run into complications.

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In regards to Dumbledore’s trust of Snape, there are actually three questions: Why Dumbledore trusted Snape, why Dumbledore didn’t trust Snape, and why Dumbledore trusted Snape, in that order.

First, Dumbledore trusted Snape enough to hire him as a teacher, and keep him in close proximity to Harry.

Second, though, Dumbledore didn’t trust Snape enough, or for some other reason chose, to not give him the DatDA position he wanted, for many years. We’ve seen in the books just how hard it is to find someone willing to take the position. Even without pulling Slughorn out of retirement, it has to be easier to find a replacement potions teacher, than to get someone new for the “cursed” position. And yet, Dumbledore was willing to put up with even that venomous Umbridge rather than give the position to the one wizard who actually wanted it.

Third, of course, he did eventually choose to give Snape the position, in Half-Blood Prince. So clearly, the circumstances have changed in some way from previous years when he didn’t do so. What was the change?

I think that any explanation of the relationship between Dumbledore and Snape has to explain all three of these factors to be considered correct.

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[QUOTE=Chronos]
First, Dumbledore trusted Snape enough to hire him as a teacher, and keep him in close proximity to Harry.
[/quote]

Unbreakable Vow that Snape has made to protect Harry.

Dumbledore believes in the curse that Voldemort has put on the teaching position (or so his words to Harry would seem to indicate.) Snape has the unique position in the Order of the Phoenix in that he is the only spy that Dumbledore has in the Death Eater camp, and Dumbledore knows that Voldemort is still alive and will return one day. Dumbledore cannot afford to lose Snape, which is why he has never given him the job of teaching Defense Against The Dark Arts.
I am going to assume that Dumbledore had no choice about putting up with Umbridge (pressure from the Ministry, and the fact that the previous teacher was kidnapped and kept prisoner for a year by a Death Eater is scaring off many applicants), and if you have a ministry spy in your school, the best place for her would be the cursed teaching job - this will guarantee that she will be gone at the end of the year.

This is more difficult to explain, but let me take a stab at it. Firstly, Dumbledore cannot find anyone at all to take the job anymore, especially now that Voldemort is “officially” returned. Secondly, Dumbledore thinks that Snape will not be capable of keeping up forever the difficult balancing act of fooling Voldemort, and assumes that at some point Snape will either have to openly renunciate Dumbledore and Hogwarts or else openly betray the Death Eaters. Snape’s balancing act is also complicated by the fact that he has given another Unbreakable Vow to finish Draco Malfoy’s task if Draco cannot - after doing this, Snape will be forced to leave Hogwarts to keep his cover. Perhaps Dumbledore’s hand injury has a role to play in the decision, Dumbledore realizes that there is a good chance that he won’t make it through the year if he keeps on trying to destroy horcruxes, though how this last item is a reason for letting Snape become DADA teacher is not clear to me. (We know that the hiring of Slughorn as potions teacher occurs after Snape learns of Voldemort’s plan to use Draco Malfoy, and after Dumbledore is badly injured destroying Marvolo’s horcruxpring.) For these reasons, Dumbledore figures that at this point he might as well let Snape have the job - the chances of Snape being able to remain at Hogwarts for another school year are slim to none anyway.

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The problem I have with the “Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry” theory is that the Unbreakable Vow seems like Dark Magic to me. I don’t remember exactly how it’s described in the book, but a spell that kills you if you don’t or can’t follow through on a promise? It just doesn’t feel to me like a spell that Dumbledore would want to be a part of.

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I agree with this, and I think it’s likely that we’ll see some sort of new white magic equivalent of the Unbreakable Vow brought out in Book 7. Like instead of you die if you break your promise, you eternally bind your soul to someone, or your welfare to theirs, or something. This will have been done because of the debt he owed to James Potter and it will be the only way of repaying that debt.

I think it’s most likely that he was remorseful not because he caused innocents (the Potters) to be killed, but because he got the guy he owed a wizard’s debt to snuffed. That has to have some pretty heavy magical ramifications. Vowing his eternal protection to Harry is probably the only way to avoid those consequences. That to Dumbledore would make him trustworthy enough, I would think.

As much as I love the idea, I don’t think Snape was in love with Lily, but I do suspect that Lily was involved with some sort of scheme or spell that would both protect her boy and help out Snape, who she probably felt really sorry for (in a good way) and who may not have even appreciated her help at the time. But he’s never spoken ill of her, and for a guy like Snape, that really says a lot.

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Other than the only time we ever see him speaking of her at all, in the books, at which point he calls her by the most insulting name in the wizarding world.

And even if Snape’s somehow magically bound to protect Harry (whether by Unbreakable Vow or life-debt), that still doesn’t explain Dumbledore’s trust of him. He was teaching at Hogwarts for years before Harry showed up, and even if he’s bound to protect Harry, that says nothing about all of the other students. Dumbledore must have trusted Snape in general, not just specifically in regards to Harry.

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[QUOTE=Antinor01]
Admitting that he entered such an agreement with Dumbledore would weaken his position in that situation. I would think that Narcissa and Bellatrix would look less favorable on him if he admitted such a thing to them, they would see it as more evidence of him consorting with the enemy.
[/QUOTE]

Absolutely, they’re the kind of people who believe that “looking out for number one” combined with total arrogance is the only possible way to think. If you claim to think in any other way or admit to any kind of weakness… you’re either lying or meat.

Chronos, to me that mention of Lily sounded like “green grapes”.

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[QUOTE=fuffle]
I agree with this, and I think it’s likely that we’ll see some sort of new white magic equivalent of the Unbreakable Vow brought out in Book 7.
[/QUOTE]
Of course, the Breakable Vow! If you don’t stand by your oath, you will feel really really bad. But seriously, the objection to the Unbreakable Vow is good. Snape has made some other kind of promise that involves white magic.

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[QUOTE=shamrock227]
But, as Dumbledore noted in Order of the Phoenix, the DADA job could potentially bring out the worst in Snape. Hence his hesitance to grant him the post.
[/QUOTE]
Where does Dumbledore say that?

[QUOTE=kaylasdad99]
if, as postulated by smiling bandit, Snape didn’t know about the task Draco had been assigned, could the Unbreakable Vow have been binding? How reckless would that have been for Snape, if he’s Vowing on his life to do something, and he doesn’t even know what he’s vowing to do?
[/QUOTE]
That was reckless, but the whole point of Snape’s behavior in the books is that he is turning from a cowardly, selfish Death Eater to a man willing to take great risks and show his courage in his fight for the good side. He deserves all the more credit knowing that he is helping people (the Order of the Phoenix members) who dislike him at best and don’t really trust him (aside from Dumbledore). In any case, I think Snape realizes that he is on shaky ground with many of the Death Eaters, in particular Bellatrix, and has to do something to shut her up once and for all.

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Touche. But honestly, I saw that as more a angry, hurt, and humiliated boy lashing out–I mean, what could be more awful than being defended from your enemies by a pretty girl? It just didn’t seem personal to me. And the whole incident winds up being about James and Lily’s relationship, anyway. Snape is more or less forgotten by the end of the scene (until James threatens to take his pants off).

I don’t think Snape was totally lying in that beginning scene of book 6 when he said that Hogwarts was the safest place politically for him to be during Harry’s first ten years. Dumbledore knew Snape had a lot of enemies and he had to keep his ace card safe, whether he’s a totally stand-up guy or not. Even more important to keep him in a structured, responsible role if he’s *not *totally trustworthy–give Snape something to be proud of, something to live for (the social status and power he wouldn’t have had otherwise) and you’re on your way to creating a mature and trustworthy young man.

Therefore he gets a permanent job at the school. Harry’s become the most important thing, and the theoretical harm Snape might do to other students become less important than the real protection Snape is providing Harry.

On the other hand, if Snape made some sort of promise to “do everything he can to protect Harry Potter,” that could easily include defending to the best of his ability Hogwarts and the wizarding world in general.

Worse than that. Forever after, the Hogwarts kitchen is always out of your favorite type of cookies! :eek: