Geez louise.
Daviiiiiiddddd!!!
Can you please ditch all but one of those damn interminable posts! Sheesh, I’m phaedrusing all over the place.
Yes, you are, andros. Here’s a napkin. 
Jodi
Fiat Justitia
Oh man… why is it that there’s always someone who can see that I am dancing around an issue instead of adressing it?? I gotta quit posting so late! LOL
RTF… as to the question you posed to me. Let me do some thinking… My initial response is that anything that would lead to lustful thoughts would be wrong. This can vary from person to person, but once you get into petting, can those thoughts be avoided? But seriously… let me think about this some more and get back to it later.
Beth
Sex before marriage? It doesn’t exist to me. Neither does anything beyond kissing in my book.
I was recently in a relationship in which my SO did not want to kiss, at all, until the altar. So, I promised her that I’d never kiss her, unless we got married.
To me, it is not a big deal to abstain from all physical contact, except maybe holding hands. sure, I’ll kiss, but if she doesn’t want to, then I’ll respect her in that decision. Now, kissing is not mentioned in the Bible, but I’m saying that I’d gladly wait for someone, because it’ll make that first kiss…etc…so much more special.
Adam
“Life is hard…but God is good”
Gaudere, quit talking to yourself. 
Beth, I don’t know if you can help me with this, but ‘lust’ (in the Biblical sense) is one of those words I’ve never pinned down particularly well.
I’m not sure how ‘lust’ differs from appropriate sexual desire. Even outside of marriage, there must be some appropriate sexual desire, unless, like ARG, one doesn’t even believe in kissing before marriage. Desire is certainly present even in a kiss of any duration, and my experience led me to believe that there were times when desire was a clean thing.
At one point, I believed the distinction was when we’re treating the other person like an object, it’s lust. But it seems to me that in most sexual encounters (even in marriage), there are moments when the other person briefly becomes no more than an object for one’s sexual gratification. So I’m unclear.
In the absence of that, I tried to go by my sense of what, if anything, the Lord was trying to tell me. If I’m doing something all that wrong, He’s pretty good about making it clear.
Woah. Let’s clear that up right now. I believe in kissing, very much so. But, this particular person who I was deeply involved with, wanted to wait, so I waited.
Again I do the post/dodge/and run.
Lust IMO is pushing God aside and putting sexual desires in place of Him.
I gotta quit trying to post after 1am!!
Tomorrow I will post here first, then LBBB grin That way you guys get some of my coherent thoughts… yes… they do exist!!
Beth
Adam: sorry for misconstruing your post - I stand corrected.
Beth - that’s a pretty good working definition. I can live with that.
“Every vice is a virtue taken to extremes.”
I have no idea who first said that, but it’s been key to my thinking on applied morals as a Christian.
Self-assurance is a major part of one’s ability to do what one is supposed to do in the world. It must be seen in one’s role as creature vis-a-vis one’s Creator. If one ignores that provision, it becomes pride, and the greatest of sins. (Augustine said that last, so don’t yell at me about it.)
There is a right place to be wrathful. (E.g., Pat Robertson and his capacity to identify God’s will and how it amazingly matches Pat’s own prejudices, IMHO, richly deserve whatever Satan can dish out – either one!) But there are obvious limits here.
Episcopal and other small-c catholic belief systems make a big deal out of God’s ability and evident willingness to transmit his grace working through particular elements of his creation in a semi-magical sort of way. There are a lot of nuances to this sort of thinking that if not spelled out end up with something that skeptic and Pounder alike will justifiably slap down hard, so please assume I’ve made a case for how they are seen to work by otherwise rational people, and save me about twenty paragraphs of exposition that will be boring to most people reading them.
This whole concept is considered the sacramental system. Through it God is seen as giving grace (the right intention being present) via the water of baptism, the bread and wine of communion, and so on. Basically as a physical act is performed, it carries with it a spiritual aspect as well. (More or less non-Christian analogy familiar to many: water-brotherhood in Stranger in a Strange Land.)
Okay, what physical act conveys the grace of inter-human romantic love making two people one that is the essence of marriage? And how can it be misused? There you have the gist of sexual theology in a nutshell.
Yue Han:
Perhaps your friend is gay?
Most marriages that fail early, do so ultimately because of some incompatibility that was undiscovered in the courtship process. If you are contemplating marriage, you owe it to yourself, your partner, and any potential progeny to insure that you are mutually compatible in every way knowable. I can understand where a couple might refrain from haveing sexual intercourse before marriage (even this is a little reckless), but to refrain from kissing, as ARG mentioned is begging for disaster… if you ask me.
OK, so you didn’t ask me, but there ya go…
insert several minutes of hysterical laughter
Uh, I don’t think so. He’s willing to do anything * but * have actual intercourse, see. He’s gone all but all the way with more girls than I’ve met in my life. I suppose he could be living a lie, but if he is, what a lie!
–John
I dunno, John. Maybe Lib’s on to something. I mean, if he doesn’t have sex he must be one a them queers.
Er, what did* you mean by that, Libertarian?
-andros-
ARG220:
Kissing??
You pikers.
Orthodox Jews don’t even touch non-related members of the opposite sex before marriage.
And you guys call yourselves religious radicals. Amateurs! 
Chaim Mattis Keller
cmkeller@compuserve.com
“Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks.”
– Douglas Adams’s Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective
:
:
Opal! We have another candidate for the “classic posts” page!
Thanks, CM. I’d, er, offer to shake your hand, but . . . .
-Melin
I would say, as I did in my blitzkrieg posts above, that things that lead to displacing God as the focus are bad. Now… even for a married couple it’s hard to think about God when doin the deed! So… how to reconcile the two? I think that’s up to the couple! But in answer to your question… doing the “extras” outside of marriage… wrong or not? Wow… I keep thinking I will have an epiphany on this and have some brilliant answer. I don’t. I don’t know. I guess I can only speak for myself and say that if I find myself divorced (a whole different can of worms) and dating again… I won’t be doin the “extras” before marriage.
Thumbs are usually ok in light sockets… but watch out for da forks!!
Seriously though… did you find yourself sexually tempted by things other than (and my favorite term) “full blown intercourse”?
Beth
JoeyBlades> I would say that most marrages fail do to lack of commitment and effort.
In Gods eyes, there is never a good reason to diviorce. It is allowed in a few instances, but never okay.
I beleive that any marrage, that includes God, can succeed if both parteners want to try.
Heaven…One to beam up!
Wow, John, it sounds like you and I are in the same boat, except that I’m 18.
Melin, I’m honored to be nominated.
Consider your hand virtually shaken.
(BTW, in practice, when offered a handshake by a member of the opposite sex who is unfamiliar with this detail of Jewish law, most Orthodox Rabbis agree that he or she shake the hand rather than cause the other person unnecessary discomfort or embarrassment.)
Chaim Mattis Keller
Andros- “scrog???” What is that exactly anyway.
As a Christian the sex before marriage issue is kind of a non issue if you follow Bible teachings. (Which seems pretty standard in most orthodox religions) It’s all the other stuff that gets debated. Don’t really know where I stand on this. There’s a whole spectrum that starts with hand holding and ends with “scrogging” (to quote Andros). Some Christians will add lustful thoughts to that list (and I have a hard time defining that too).
I’m going to answer this from a Christian and non-Christian perspective- I had premarital sex (and lots of it) in my wild an crazy days, and was promiscuous even after becoming a Christian. Now that I’m married, I wish I had waited- I feel like I gave up a part of myself that I can’t get back- a part that should have been a very special time between me and my husband.
I don’t think God is going to punish me for having premarital sex- I think that God gives us “rules” to protect us from having to face the consequences of our actions. If anyone is willing to face these consequences- then by all means- premarital sex is o’k.
Lets talk about HIV/AIDS and sexually transmitted diseases- condoms don’t eliminate these- it’s a fallicy. I’m a physician and see a lot of people who thought they were being safe. It’s sad to tell a young college kid that they have AIDS.
How bout domestic violence? Once people are in a physical relationship, it becomes harder to say goodbye, and people (especially women) become extremely emotionally attached and codependent.
Unwanted pregnancy? Not going to start the abortion debate here, but what happens to the children born under unwanted conditions? Are they more likely to grow up in a loving, family environment and succeed in this world or are they prone to abuse and start out in life with a disadvantage?
Geez, I sound awefull preachy (as I step down from my soapbox) I get to see a lot of this every day at work, and it really pisses me off.