Sexism: discuss

Great Debates
21

So, YOU are reluctant to get a job in HVAC because you have an expectation that the men will think you don’t know what you are doing or want to check you out? Interesting. As for the first, showing you DO know what you are doing is usually a good way to get over this particular hump. Perhaps you think that all men are simply given a pass when starting a new job, automatically assumed to know everything about everything? Let me put it a different way…I’m a man. If I started to work in HVAC I MIGHT be given an initial pass that I knew what I was doing…for about 5 minutes. After that it would be quite clear that I don’t have a clue how HVAC systems work except that they change the temperature of the room somehow. You, being a woman, might NOT get an initial pass (or you might but thats another matter)…for those same 5 min. until you displayed your obvious expertise and made me look like an idiot.

As for the second point about guys checking you out…well, thats life. I’m sorry, but guys are hard wired to ‘check out’ females, and what they think inside is, well, their problem. If they SAY something or DO something then you have plenty of options…starting with the inborn female ability to cut any male off at the knees with her tongue alone, but going all the way up to legal action if necessary.

As to your car point, well, its probably just as annoying to me that females automatically expect me to know all about them as it is to you that males expect you not too. I’m not a mechanic. I don’t know how to fix a plumbing problem, start fires with my bear hands, survive on grubs or kill and skin animals either. There are still expectations of sexual roles that are part of our collective culture that aren’t just going to go away. However, its been my experience that while INITIAL expectations might preclude you from having a discussion about automobiles (or a man, say, from having a conversation with a group of women about cross stitch, say), showing some interest and exhibiting some knowledge will probably break the ice with all but the most hide bound of the other sex. Your husband could probably help by including you in the discussion as well. To use your car example…when talk shifts to how cars work beyond ‘well, you put gas in the tank, right?’ I point at my wife and hold my own hands up.

Got to run to a meeting, so I’ll stop here for now…though I wnt to make some comments on what you were saying about Muslim women in a bit.

-XT

22

I know that “just because she has a vagina” or “just because he has a penis” are the standard semi-comic ways of referring to which sex a person belongs to, but you could replace it with “because she has female hormones” and it wouldn’t sound quite so ludicrous.

The fact is that there are differences between men and women in the aggregate, that don’t necessarily apply when you’re talking about individuals. Pick a random man and a random woman, and it won’t necessarily be true that the man would rather talk about cars and the woman talk about shoes, but that’s a safer bet than the other way around.

Put that together with people’s tendency, unfortunate as it may be, to make unwarranted assumptions and premature judgments, to categorize and stereotype, and this sort of “sexism” is never going to go away entirely.

23

Thank goodness you snipped off and totally ignored the part where I addressed just that:

Otherwise one might think you jerked your knee in response to my first paragraph and failed to read the whole post.

Certainly, there are fringe feminists. There are fringe atheists, fringe environmentalists, fringe fundamentalists of all religious stripes, fringe groups for every political cause. Does that mean all women who identify as feminist must be wedged into that group?

And nowhere did I say “some sinister enemy”, so I’ll thank you to not plunk that tinfoil hat on my head. Feminists are painted in an unflattering light by many people, male and female, who dislike the movement. However, the vast majority of feminists (male and female) do not fall into that category.

Really? You’re equating the Feminist movement with terrorism? Lovely.

24

You realize (or maybe you don’t at that) that those Muslim women are in most cases not given a CHOICE about it, right? Even if they think they are, its practically hard wired into their culture for them (and the males for that matter) to think that way. Its the MEN who are dictating (or dictated in the past) the cultural norms and standards for clothing and behavior…not the women? And you are ok with that? Interesting…

I remember reading something about female circumcision once that always haunted me. It was a mother talking about growing up in a village who practiced this (barbaric…I’m not very culturally understanding about this) rite. What she was saying was that it was the women who enforced this rite…and that the enculturalization was such that even small girls WANTED to have this done to them so they could be like all the other women. She was saying that she had this done to her, but that she didn’t want it for her little daughter…but that her daughter was begging her mother to let her have it done so she wouldn’t be different. I’ll give you one guess as to who’s idea (of which sex) this mutilation was ORIGINALLY though. This is all by way of illustrating and highlighting what you were saying about those female Muslim’s and their clothes to hide them from the hungry eyes of rabid males (and maybe give you an insight as to who exactly this was for…who benefited and who was being protected. Hint, its not for the benefit of the females)…

As for having men look at you, if you really and truly dislike it so much then you (at least) have a choice…you can in fact wear baggy and shapeless clothing if you want (unlike those Muslim women). You can wear anything you want. Or you could, like, grow a thicker skin and ignore men looking at you I suppose. Again, as long as they aren’t DOING anything about it, what difference? If they do something, then take steps.

What I find interesting is that you apparently find natural human male behavior annoying (at BEST!) and disgusting at worst. Picking you up on the streets (or in bars or whatever)? Checking you out? Thats hard wired male behavior, especially though not exclusively if they perceive you are unattached. If they are offensive about it or insulting, slap their face. Or give them a piece of your mind. Or walk away. Or call the police.

Or learn to enjoy the feel of shapeless black robes and a veil I suppose…at least you have a choice.

-XT

25

So, Der Trihs, are you a liberal? Perhaps even a radical?

26

The OP has no more obligation to call herself a feminist than modern anti-slavery advocates do to call themselves Republicans.

27

Is it just me, or do any other guys feel like we’re almost constantly under attack by women like the original poster?

We’re looking at you because a hundred million years of evolution tells us to. Don’t take it personally. We’re not trying to demean you, subjugate you, or any other goofy thing like that. In fact, YOU’RE the one with the power, because you couldn’t care less about most of us.

“Equal” doesn’t mean “the same” in this social context. Men and women will always react differently to each other, and there’s nothing unequal about it. I have to live with the fact that women are usually offended when guys give them (what in their own mind would be) a compliment. You have to live with the fact that we’re almost always thinking about sex. That’s not gonna change, and it’s a bit insulting that you’re accusing us of mistreating you because of it. You have a hundred times more power over the average guy than he has over you, and you’re claiming to be a victim of sexism. Do you see how silly that sounds?

28

Give the chap a medal (or a whore)!

29

That right there is the reason why I hesitate to use the word “feminist”. Your attitude that women who “screw back to the kitchen” aren’t feminists. Fuck off. I LIKE the kitchen. “Feminists” like this want me to get out of the house, drop my kids off at a daycare center where the workers are paid minimum wage and turnover is 60% a year and get a job as an engineer or CEO. They want me to be a man with (saggy) tits, because apparently only men have “real” jobs. They’re still buying into the patriarchy, they just want to be part of it! Which is perfectly fine, for those women who want that. I *like *being a stay at home mother. I *like *cooking. I *like *wearing skirts and bras and sometimes even makeup. You would not believe the world of shit I got from self labeled “feminists” in college who lectured, berated, laughed and stopped talking to me when I told them that I was looking forward to getting married, having kids and raising them myself, if I was lucky enough to find a husband who could support us on one income and had the same goals in mind. You would have thought I was proposing to have my feet bound.

So I don’t use the word, because I don’t want to be grouped with people who treat me like shit and like I’m stupid because I know how to cook a mean pot roast and I have a vagina. I’m a humanist. I’m interested in equality and in human rights regardless of gender. I want every woman to have the choice to work outside the home…or not…just like I want that for every man. I want men to feel comfortable at “Mommy and Me” playgroups and women to know how to change their own tires - and vice-versa. Yes, I want the freedom for women to not wear hijab, as I said in that other thread . But I also want then to have the freedom to wear hijab if that’s what they want (burqa are a different matter, as I believe they are physically dangerous and an unacceptable security risk).

30

Get this lady a decorative necklace (or gigolo!)

31

My only question is why are most people so focused on the label aspect from the OP…i.e. whether or not the OP identifies with the label ‘feminist’ is irrelevant. Why all the digression into squabbling about it? Seems kind of silly (or stupid) to me. If someone says they are/aren’t <insert label here>, but go on to state their views as X, Y and Z…then you should make your judgment based on those views, not on the supposed label they are accepting or denying.

I think the OP being or not being a feminist is irrelevant to the discussion myself…and that really, people ought to focus on the QUESTIONS being asked instead. JMHO there…

-XT

32

WhyNot, you might want to take a breath, and stop projecting your insecurities about your life choices on to me. I said none of the things you’re implying I said.

I don’t think that you’re stupid for being a SAHM. If it works for you, good on you. Anyone who chooses the kitchen is welcome to it. That doesn’t change the fact that you should be grateful it’s an actual choice.

33

Not in this Forum, [del]Lady[/del] Woman.

[ /Moderating ]

34

WTF? :confused:

Why are people actually criticizing the OP for not wanting to use the term feminist? You know what, I’m a guy, and I believe in equal rights, but I won’t go anywhere near that term because it carries such negative connotations. It’s a word, and one can be actually be MORE precise by saying they “believe in equality of the sexes” because they inherently exclude all of the preconceived notions that go with the term “feminist”. Get over yourselves and your self-righteous crusade, she’s on YOUR side!

As for the OP, this is silly as well. It goes both ways. I’m tired of being asked to carry stuff or fix stuff or kill bugs. I’m tired of being expected to hold open doors; though I do so willingly, I find it very rude when I don’t at least get a nod, or a thank you smile and I’m ignored like the hotel doorman. I’m tired of being expected to know certain things about cars and electronics (even though I almost always know the answer) and assumed to NOT know how to do certain things like cook and clean.

You know what, guys get gawked at too! I’ve been on the subway and a random women start running her fingers through my hair or touching my arms. When I’m at the gym, or the pool, or just going about my business at the mall, and I see all the women check me out. I go to a bar, unless I’m actually holding my fiancée’s hand, I get hit on by women too (and even then, that has happened).

And you know what? With the exception unexpected touching, and the getting hit on when I’m with my fiancée, I don’t let it bother me because it’s a compliment to be found attractive. I’m sick of women acting like somehow these problems are limited to them, how it’s caused by men being pigs, how everything is somehow men’s fault and women would make everything better. No, this isn’t even a lot of women, but it’s about the most blatant example of hypocrysy I’ve seen since my aunt told me that I shouldn’t smoke while she had a lit cigarette in her hand.

Equality DOESN’T mean “same”. What makes men and women equal is their ability to choose to do what they want. If a woman what’s to work her way up the corporate ladder like is expected of most men, or she wants to be a stay-at-home mom, either one is fine, as long as it’s HER choice. Same for men, if they want to have a career or be a stay-at-home dad, more power too him, as long as it’s HIS choice to do so.

35

Then why the “screw off back to the kitchen” crack? It’s obvious that you find the kitchen a lesser, non-equal-rights-desiring choice.

And I am grateful. But it’s a choice that “feminists” have tried to take away from me, by simple social pressure, all my life. That makes me a little titchy.

tomndebb, I apologize for the swear, but I’m actually not clear why I was warned for it. Is “the eff word” off limits in GD now? “Fuck off” is a dismissal, not a personal insult or death wish. I’m not arguing, mind, just looking for clarity so I don’t do something to merit another warning.

36

That’s not the impression I got.

The kitchen used to be the only acceptable place for women to be. I interpret Diana’s crack as more of a reference to the gay ole days when women were viewed as nothing but men helpers and baby makers, rather than an actual place.

37

I am not a guy, but I do think that it’s frequently forgotten that the tag “sexism” can apply to either gender.

And see, that’s what I find most interesting. How “sexism” is applied. It’s true, there are a lot of different connotations and some of them are very subtle, but almost everyone has a different idea of what constitutes sexism. Maybe we should start by what is clearly accepted as sexist and work from there.

Sexism: Descriminatory remark/attitude/perception based solely on gender.

Do we all agree to this?

38

Or, perhaps, Sexism: Discriminatory remark/attitude/perception based solely on irrelevant gender difference.

Regards,
Shodan

39

Well, me too. That’s why it’s offensive. “Screw off” is obviously not a desirable choice and “back to the kitchen” is shorthand for “to the repressive traditional female roles and attitudes you’d have without feminism”. My problem is simply that the attitude displayed by that comment is just as stifling, restrictive and “-ist” as the pre-feminist attitudes she scorns. I find nothing repressive in traditional female roles as long as they’re freely chosen; my direct experience with people using the label “feminist” has taught me that they do have a problem with it. That’s my explanation for why I don’t use the word “feminist” to apply to me.

40

It’s not obvious to me. “Back to the kitchen” and “shackle yourself to the stove” and all such phrases (“barefood and pregnant” is another one), to me, refer back to a time when women had no choices and existed solely for manual labour and babymaking-you know, when it wasn’t a choice but something you had to do to fit a very limited view of what women were capable of and allowed to do. “Go back to the kitchen” doesn’t even really indicate anything relating to modern SAHM-ing for me, but a “go back in time to that era then and see how you like it” sentiment. I really didn’t get that DianaG was saying staying at home was a lesser choice. Especially since she follows up her statement with

I don’t even know how else she’s supposed to phrase that time-most female work in those days was heavily related to housework. It can’t even compare to modern SAHM-ing-my grandmother, my mother and her sisters literally spent all day until the late evening doing stuff like manually washing things all the time (ahh, the third world, my parents remember life without electricity till their teens).

I think she brings up a very valid point-that young women today, including high-powered professionals, feel very uncomfortable around the word “feminist” or identifying as a feminist because the term essentially refers to the man-hating shrew. So you get people who will list X, Y and Z as their beliefs, all regarding equal opportunity for the sexes, but refuse to identify as such because they don’t want to be painted as extremists and come off too shrill to men.

I’d also like to point out that the world isn’t divided into the SAHM-ing makeup wearing cooks and we, the hatchet faced career women bent on taking away everyone else’s lipstick. The majority of SAHMs I know are very well educated, successful individuals-and generally above caring about other people’s insecure preaching regarding their life choices. I mean, hell, that latest Mommy Wars book by Linda Hirshman isn’t even selling that well.