Sexism: discuss

Great Debates
41

To get back into the spirit of the original OP, I think sexism is alive and well today, but it depends on where you are/who you are. In other words, I’ve noticed (and maybe I just watch too much TV) that the hyper-religious in this country - as in many others - are more likely to feel that women belong in the home and should be quiet and modest. But there’s also the other end of the spectrum where women are “wasting” themselves if they’re SAHMs. However, in the mainstream (which is sorely underrepresented in politics), sexism doesn’t seem quite as rampant.

But it goes both ways. As many people have noted, men are often as subject to sexism now as women. Many men are depicted as affable buffoons on sitcoms and commercials, good for nothing more than carrying heavy things, killing creatures large and small and providing comic relief.

I am absolutely for equality between the sexes. But I, too, hesitate to call myself feminist because of its connotations. I certainly want to have just as much choice in my life as my husband does - and I do. However, I am female and my husband is male. On the surface, that shouldn’t make a difference. And by and large it doesn’t. But there are certain things that make me not necessarily less equal in our relationship, but very different.

I can’t wipe out my culture and I can’t wipe out the fact that traditionally women are considered the homemakers - whether they have a job or not - and therefore are often raised to be more experienced in other areas than men are and vice versa.

Additionally, and more importantly, I gave birth to our son, not my husband. I nursed my son, not my husband. Because of that, our child sees me as his primary caregiver and source of comfort. That’s true for a lot of moms. And while it’s on the one hand very flattering, it also means that I and a lot of moms have a different responsibility to my son at this time than my husband does. That means that whether I want to or not, if I want my son to be happy and comfortable until he’s old enough to be more comfortable in his own independence, I have to take on a more traditional role when I get home from work. That’s not bad, but it’s a different (sometimes almost crushing) responsibility that my husband doesn’t have. And it’s not because my husband’s lazy - my son just doesn’t need him the same way he needs me now.

That’s the problem I have with the connotations of the term “feminist.” For a lot of people, the term implies a certain freedom - freedom to climb at work, freedom to let someone else do the cooking, cleaning, and freedom from childrearing. It’s freedom to be certain, but parts of it - the “shaking the kids off my skirts” part - is not the type of freedom I want to be associated with. My current situation and the situation of many others may on the surface seem unequal, but it’s also a result of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution and it just is. The choice to have a child was just as much my choice as it was my husband’s, so I feel we’re equal - but different - partners.

42

On the basis of your posts, I don’t doubt it.

I do sense a backsliding of feminism, where the lines between ‘empowered women doing what they want with their bodies’ and ‘women acting dumb, stripping and starving so they can land men’ are blurring (see: The Pussycat Dolls), and part of the problem is that young girls don’t want to be associated with those icky, hairy feminazis. Ewwww. Of course, it’s all well and good to skip the Take Back the Night Rally as long as the women who do attend fight for your rights to get subsidized birth control.

43

I think what troubles me is that we repeat “don’t judge X by the actions of a few individuals” in relation to so many groups. Don’t judge all Muslims by the actions of a few extremists, don’t judge Christians by the actions of a few extremists, don’t judge Battlestar Galactica because a few of the fanboys/girls are intolerable and rude to you when you try to talk about it. And how many Muslims, Christians, Battlestar Galactica and whathaveyou fans abandon all identification with the word used to describe their beliefs because a few people are *ssholes, yet continue to state they believe in the principals, they just don’t want to be called by the word?

With feminism it does seem completely different. I cannot count the number of times I’ve heard someone state they’re for equality of the sexes but shy away from using the word “feminist” because there are a couple of crackpots. Even I never bring up the fact that I identify as a feminist because the person’s face will twist and they’ll assume I’m some sort of harridan intent on talking about how men suck all the time. Yet, some of the biggest feminists I know are incredibly concerned about how men get pigeonholed and treated unfairly by modern standards. I don’t belong to NOW, hell, I am actually a pretty conservative person and even moderately religious! I even, gasp, used to be a Republican before the previous administration.

44

Well, so far so good.

The attitude displayed by that comment is, quite simply, what you just stated above. It is NOT a statement on the relative merits of SAHMing vs. WOHMing. Or, for that matter, anything else.

Me neither.

And my direct experience with people who reject the word “feminist” has taught me that they worry too much about what other people think.

45

Perhaps you should stop calling yourself an atheist, then, since some lame-brained people consider atheist immoral baby-killing god haters. Why should anyone not call him or herself what they are because of what other people think?

46

A fair argument, however, I think “feminist” is an inherently loaded word and I’m not sure it’s a fair comparison to the other words you mention. For instance, “Christian” inherently means “follower of Christ”, it’s there in the word. “Feminist”, as a word doesn’t inherently have the same meaning, the word doesn’t inherently imply “equality of the sexes”; it inherently seems to mean “someone who is a proponent of a pro-female agenda”, and that could mean anything these days.

At a time when women were fighting be able to vote, and get equal employment opportunity and such, the meaning of the term was very clear. But now, in a world where we’re much closer to equal than not, it seems to imply an almost superiority movement as opposed to an equality movement. IMO, the cause would be served MUCH better by adopting a better term, because even the term isn’t gender neutral.

Hell, a term that was used upthread “humanist” not only implies equality of the sexes, but of all races and nationalities as well. Isn’t that an even better cause?

47

Want to see the death of sexism and feminism ™ truly at work? Go work in a library!

Why, in the course of an average workday I (as a man) see such wonderful displays of feminism as…

  1. The freedom to gossip about anyone and everything.
  2. 9 3/4 jokes a day about “my stupid husband”
  3. 3 1/3 requests a day to list something heavy because “you’re a strapping young man”
  4. 7 1/2 requests a day to fix the computers because “you know that stuff”
  5. 1 5/8 jokes about general man bashing

And on special occasions…

When the AC broke, the staff were encouraged to wear shorts. I was encouraged to wear shorts because “we want to see those legs!”

And I have had my stomach patted with a snide little “getting a little chunky there.” She immediately apologized, but can you imagine the shit storm if I did that to one of my female co-workers?

I love my job, but women in large numbers are just as disruptive as men in larger numbers.

48

I have exactly the same problem… women throwing themselves at me… rubbing up against me on the subway… inviting me back for threesomes with their girlfriends… People don’t realize what a burden it is, being irresistible to the opposite sex.

49

That would be a fair comment if it was clear what “feminism” means these days. The meanings of terms change over time, often in response to what people think the terms mean. If enough people are of the opinion that “feminism” no longer means ‘someone interested in equality of the sexes’, then are they wrong - or has the meaning of the term changed?

Similar issues surround the uses of the words “liberal” and “conservative” - both have had their meanings evolve somewhat in popular usage over time.

50

Yeah, because that’s exactly what he said.

:rolleyes:

51

Then you’re letting yourself be intimidated by other people just the way you would if you didn’t take a job or stayed out of a conversation or changed the way you dress. If a woman wearing a chador said she only did it because other people would call her a prostitute if she didn’t, would that make it right? The people who would call you a feminazi for calling yourself a feminist aren’t going to stop there. If you let them get away with it, they’ll eventually call you a feminazi because you have a job, or aren’t married, or don’t have kids, or vote.

52

Because it impedes communication and adversely affects interpersonal relationships.

**
DianaG**, I apologize for my explosion earlier. I’m not trying to make excuses, but it’s been a trying day, and yes, I was triggered by memories of all those other folks and how they treated me, not by you specifically. At heart, I think you and I agree on all the things that matter in this debate save the labels we use for ourselves. I hope you can forgive me for my heated choice of words.

53

Well… maybe I exaggerated a little.

But it does get tiring, constantly being treated like a sex object.

I mean, just because I’m a man, and happen to enjoy wearing spandex and tank tops, doesn’t mean I want women hitting on me all the time.

54

Well yeah. It’s shorthand. Not a literal slur against kitchens.

Just like saying “screw off to the back of the bus” in a comparable manner is not actually intended to putdown those who like sitting in the back of the bus. It’s essentially saying “you might as well be living in the days when blacks were made to sit in the back of the bus”.

55

Hmmm. The definition of humanism (as it’s applied currently) is a school of philosophy which rejects religion and embraces man’s ability to evolve and advance through science and logic and reason*. I like it.

*[gratuitous sexist joke]which means, of course, that women can never be humanists.[/gsj]

56

I call FICTION on this supposed anecdote, and on all that follows in the same paragraph.

What you utterly fail to comprehend, is that it is far, FAR more difficult for a woman to work her way up the corporate ladder than it is for a man, and that the long perseverance of feminists is a big reason why it’s possible AT ALL.

57

It depends on what the majority of people calling themselves feminists think. It’s fairly easy for the enemies of a position (be it feminism or atheism) to try to tar all holders of that position with the beliefs of an extremist minority - or even a pretend extremist minority. Should we accept this and keep retreating from the name we want to use, or should we fight back?

58

So, acceding to the slur that feminists are hairy man-hating Lesbians helps communications? I’ve known plenty of feminists, and none have fallen into that category - including the lesbian ones. How would it help interpersonal communications if I called myself an agnostic instead of what I really am, an atheist? I don’t know about you, but I don’t think that lying and fear of saying what I believe in hurts interpersonal relationships.

59

But if I say, “I’m a feminist” and other people hear, “I’m a hairy man-hating lesbian, let’s trash-talk men for the next hour,” they’re not going to listen to another word I say. Much like, I’m ashamed to admit, I couldn’t (wouldn’t) hear DianaG for a few hours this afternoon. I’m glad I got over it, but my experience is that saying, “I believe in equal rights and opportunities for all genders” is more productive and makes the conversation I want to have possible. I mean, who would disagree with that? Far, far fewer people than will clamp their ears shut when they hear the word “feminist”.

While NOW and the classic feminists of yore may have WANTED feminist to mean “I believe in equal rights and opportunities for all genders,” I’m not sure it ever did really to the majority of people outside the vocal extremists. And I sure don’t think it does now, as **Malthus **says.

At the end of the day, it’s the same old “Politically Correct” debate: should we modify our language to make other people more comfortable so they will continue to dialog and address the issues, not the vocabulary? I don’t have a good (or consistent) answer. I only do what works for me. I’m not trying to either ban or reclaim the word feminist. It’s just not that important to me (the word, that is.) Maybe if it weren’t so gynocentric I might. But I prefer the (mis)use of the word “humanist”, as it doesn’t exclude men.

60

The bottom line is we need to get past the idea that there are differences between men and women. Gender, after all, is a socially constructed category, not a natural one. We’re all the same.

It’s time to get past the stereotypes imposed by patriarchy: that women enjoy shopping, for example, or clothes, or that they’re not as sexually aggressive as men. To the extent that they’re true at all, it’s only because of the injustices of the past. If women spend more time at the mall than men, it’s because of the barriers to entry, that prevent them from staying home, and watching football, and drinking beer. Or installing the latest drivers on their computers.

Unfortunately, it’s a fact that institutional sexism, as well as history, conspires to hold women back. As long as schools, courts, and employers treat women differently than men, women will have to continue to struggle for equality. Take the divorce court for example: most of the time, women get primary custody of the couple’s children, after the divorce. What is this, but evidence of (and I would say proof of) of institutional sexism? Why can’t women enjoy the freedom of only having to take care of their kids every other weekend? Like men? This is a freedom men have enjoyed for generations.

Anytime you make assumptions about a person, based on gender, it’s sexism. And sexism persists, despite the refusal of many people to acknowledge it. Hopefully, someday soon, we’ll get to the place where we won’t even notice gender.

Unfortunately, we’re not there yet.