The Bible often condemns adultry, in no uncertain terms, but it does so as a property crime. (See Exodus 20:17 from the Ten Commandments: “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” Adultry was property crime.)
When Jesus condemned “looking at a woman lustfully”, he was expanding adultry to include thoughts of adultry. Adultry is still only applicable in terms of a married woman.
As for terms like “sexual immorality”, I think you have to look at the culture of the day. Jesus was a Jew, raised by Jews, and it’s pretty clear that in those days, Jews didn’t condemn sex before marriage. It was considered immature and wasn’t advised, but it certainly wasn’t sin. “Sexual immorality” almost certainly refered to homosexual sex and beastiality, in first century Jewish thought.
Of course, you can interpret the Bible to mean whatever you want. Most people do.
Not true. The Catholic Church promotes “Natural Family Planning” as an acceptable means of birth control. This is much different than “Rhythm Method”. Rhythm method examines the cycles of ovulation and looks for patterns. NFP is a way of looking for the signs of fertility: Increased basal temperature, increased production of cervical mucas, and position of cervix, to name a few. Most people mistake NFP for Rhythm.
Although it doesn’t protect against STD’s, it is as effective as other methods of birth control… AND it doesn’t mess with the woman’s body.
-Dragwyr
“If God had meant for man to eat waffles,
he would have given him lips like snowshoes”
-Rev. Billy C. Wirtz
A few slight inaccuracies regarding the story of Onan, and one comment re: Talmudic interpretation.
The inaccuracy: there were only two surviving brothers. The one who spilled his seed on the ground was the first one asked (Onan, as others have identified). The other (and last) brother (Shelah) was held back by his father (Judah) from marrying the widow (Tamar), because Judah (incorrectly) assumed that if her two husbands had been killed, it was due to a transgression of hers (the one thing the two dead brothers had in common), not due to seperate transgressions on the parts of the brothers (which in fact was the case).
The interpretation: It is true that the story can be interpreted as that Onan was punished for his disobedience. However, the Talmud sees the masturbation as the problem because the verse (in the original Hebrew) specifically mentions that he had “destroyed the seed,” a fact that would have been extraneous if it were merely a problem with disobedience. Talmdic Rabbis (and those hwo follow their teachings) believe that no detail mentioned in the Torah is unnecessary, and often derive laws from apparently extra words.
“Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks.”
– Douglas Adams’s Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective
Back when I was regularly attending church, it struck me even then as odd, the way that people would get much more worked up about what they viewed as sexual sin, than they would about any other type of sin. Drug use - bad, but it happens. Violence - bad, but it happens. A little premarital sex - we’re going to drum you out of the church. I can’t help but think it’s American hangups in conjuntion with Biblical injunctions that blows it way out of proportion.
When my wife and I went to “marriage counselling” (I use that term advisedly), the pastor put us through weeks of grueling cross-examination. Yet when we had passed his little gauntlet, and asked him for constructive advice on sex, he was at a loss, and basically said something to the effect of “I dunno, whenever someone wants sex, they should get it.” Yeah, real helpful…
I think some of you are missing the point. I couldn’t care less what your own interpretations are on the Bible, nor whether you find Song of Solomon erotic or whatever. The OP asked why the Christian church says masturbation is a sin. As was pointed out, many Christian faiths don’t think it is, but the “Church”" (i.e. the Catholic church) does. The reason why the Catholic Church says it is is for the reasons mentioned above. Now, if you think that the technicalities of Onan, Jesus’s teachings or Song of Solomon is reason enough why you can masturbate and be cool in the eyes of God, that’s fine. I’m not saying myself that it is a sin, I’m saying why the Church says so, drawing from my years of Catholicism. If you have issues with it, you should probably take it up with them, as I’m not exactly a model Catholic and the Pope rarely returns my calls.
“I guess one person can make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn’t.”
My point was that many religious ** hone in on that as the reason against masturbating. **
I’m a Southern Baptist, by denomination, certainly no scholar. But, the Bible * says * ‘And Judah said to Onan,“Go in to your brother’s wife and marry her, and raise up an heir to your brother.”
BUT Onan knew that the heir would not be his: and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother.
** And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: therefore He killed him also.’**
The Talmud can interpret it as talking about the seed on the ground but in other verses in the Bible, the Lord told the Israelites if they have an ‘emission’ they are unclean until evening, and merely to wash up and they are considered clean again’, so it seems clear to me, at least, that it is the deception/disobedience/rebellion that is being punished.
Judy
Jolt, men of God, are still just regular men, with hangups and embarrassments. Every time my sons would want to talk about sex, my husband would run the other way. The Bible certainly has a lot to say on the subject, including not depriving your partner, and that the marriage bed is considered ‘holy and undefiled’. Men are even advised to stay home the first year and make their spouses happy, didja do that??
“Um, according to who? Nothing more than a high brow troll, though occasionally the bi polar personality swung in a constructive direction on innocuous topics.” Omniscient
Jophiel, since it was Homer who asked the general question of why Christian churches are against masturbation, how is something inanimate going to answer??
Anyone answering this, has to be of a personal interpretation then doesn’t it, being that none of us is the church, or the Pope either.
Anti Pro, just for the record, I’ve always believed in “ladies first” - that applies to orgasms as well as holding the door open. My wife tells me that she’s never had to fake it with me, and if my motion is not doing it for her ocean, well that’s why G-d gave us fingers and mouths.
Yeah, I guess I can understand our pastor being squeamish about talking about sex, but someone in his position should have been prepared to talk about it. He was so interested in tearing us down (to “divorce-proof” us), that he had nothing constructive to say. I got the feeling that we weren’t spiritual enough for him, so he wasn’t exactly rooting for us. Needless to say, as soon as he married us, we never darkened his door again.
He could have said lots of practical advice, without getting too graphic. Like don’t expect miracles on your wedding night, take your time (months) to really get to know your spouse sexually before expecting the sex to be great (we did not have premarital sex, so that was pertinent information). We figured that one out on our own, but no thanks to him.
And also for the record, by eldest child (a pre-teen) already knows what sex is, without any embellishment or titillation.
I used to be wracked with guilt about my masturbation habit, so I did a scripture study on it. There’s a tenuous argument at best against it, implied by the passage about Onan and Jesus’ teaching about lust. I suppose you could give yourself a prostate massage while thinking about wallpaper, but thinking about those luscious babes in church worked so much better for me ;). I decided that I tormenting myself unnecessarily over a non-existent prohibition. So 5-finger Mary and I have a regular date, and I don’t sweat the moral implications any more.
Huh?
Homer wasn’t asking the Church why it was so, he was asking us why it was so. I told him why the Church, as an organization, believes that masturbation is a sin. You don’t have to believe what the Church says (I often don’t), but that has nothing to do with whether or not the Church says it. You don’t have to be Darwin to recite his theory of evolution, you don’t have to be Halley to predict when the comet will swing around again, and you don’t have to be the Pope to state the Church’s already taught doctrine about why masturbation is a sin - your interpretations aside.
“I guess one person can make a difference, although most of the time they probably shouldn’t.”
Well then. Very interesting. Thanks, all. I already knew the story about Onan, and I had always felt it’s message was more about disobediance than masturbation, also. I just wondered if perhaps the Bible made a stronger case against it, or any case at all. Thanks!
–Tim
Call me a social worker. I shake hands with the unemployed all the time!
You can’t accidently create a handicapped baby whilst smoking pot. - Coldfire
One last comment on the story of Omer. The “sin of Omer” was not masturbation. When he “spilled his seed” he was withdrawing before ejaculating – something akin to coitus interruptus. And it was that – his refusal to impregnate his brother’s wife – that got him in trouble with God.
I see your point. However, in the original Hebrew, the differences are significant.
For example, in your quote of the Onan story, you have that he “emitted” on the ground. As I said, the Hebrew word used in the verse means “destroyed”…not quite so innocuous sounding.
In addition, you are correct about impurity until immersion being the consequence of seminal emission…but when the Torah discusses these laws, the Hebrew term used is the passive tense…“if semen should come out of him.” The Hebrew word for this jind of impurity is Keri, which means “happenstance”…implying an accident, not that it’s fine to do it intentionally.
In this day and age, it’s easy to make light of the value placed on sperm by Western religion, such as in the Monty Python song quoted by mattk at the beginning of this thread. But it’s hardly a joke. Since religion considers human life to be a sacred thing, and since sperm is the stuff of which human life can form, it’s not (from the religious perspective) to be treated so cavalierly (sp?).
I’m with Yupyup. Following the catholic logic I conclude that women must attempt pregnancy everytime they ovulate to prevent waste of an ovum. Ovum seem much more valuable than sperm to me (limited supply etc.). This just goes to show you can’t apply logic to this. This is religion, not science. In my opinion, logic is the greatest selling point of atheism.
I call myself a frisbyterian. I believe that when I die my soul goes on the roof and no one can get it down. Masturbation is permitted in frisbyterianism, just wash your hands before going outside to play.
If men had wings,
and bore black feathers,
few of them would be clever enough to be crows.
Especially when you consider that all those millions of sperm are going to die anyway, so you might as well put them to good use. If you don’t masturbate, they will die anyway. The only way for ONE of them to NOT die is for you to father a child. If you’re monogamous, the most often you can do that is 9 months plus the time she still doesn’t feel like sex. I’m not sure how long sperm lives in your testicles before they’re killed off, but I bet it’s days at best. “Waste not, want not” takes on a new meaning…
Likewise, if a woman has sex when she can’t get pregnant, the only things she’s guilty of is showing some poor sperm (that would die anyhow) a good time. What a kind-hearted, generous thing to do…
Well, obviously women can’t intentionally cause an egg to be destroyed (the best they can do is by omission) the way men can sperm by masturbating. But like men who experienced a seminal emission, the Torah says that a menstruating woman is unclean and must immerse in water before being considered clean again. (Of course, this is the Jewish view, and I have no idea what the Catholic church’s take on it is.)
Alright, masterbation is considered wrong by the church (so is everything else thats fun) I’m a preachers son this doesn’t mean that I’m very holy, every heard the saying “preachers kids are the worst?”
Well anyway back to the subject. I can’t give you the chapter and verse, but I remember asking my dad questions like this one just to see if he had an answer and for this subject he did. Somewhere in that big black book they call a bible it says something to the effects about how some dude went up on a hill and “spilled his seeds” and all this other stuff about how that was only supposed to happen with your wife.
Secondly, I get my fair share of women, plus I masterbate my river never runs dry, so to say. Anyhow I have very clear skin. The pimple question raises a question of my own. Have you ever know that the people with really nasty skin problems are usually dirty and proably never seen a peice of soap in there entire life. I think everyone should donate a ar of soap to goodwill or some other organizatiosn like it, in fact I think it should be mandatory…oh you should also make it some of that good smelly soap. Dirt balls need to smell good too. I mean do you want to smell their nasty sweaty body odor? well I kinda got carried away with that. Bottom line is YES masterbation is considered wrong but it sure is fun. Secondly wash your damn face and maybe it won’t breakout.
p.s. oh yeah buy so soap and give it to someone thats a dirt ball
At the time during the Victorian era when our Western European/British/American culture was deciding that masturbation was bad and would make you burn in Hell forever, or make you go blind, or at the very least make hair grow on your palms, women were not considered to even HAVE sexual desires, let alone need to have the white male establishment decide what should be done about them. Nobody ever saw a woman have an experience during which magic “jism” appeared, so it was considered, logically enough, I suppose, that women didn’t experience orgasm.
So this discussion, apparently, Yupyup, deals exclusively with “guy stuff”. Been a long time, in this increasingly PC-era, since it was possible to even HAVE a discussion about “guy stuff”, huh?
BTW: there is absolutely nothing in the Bible concerning masturbation. There is a general rule, yes, that says, “Whoever lusts after a woman in his heart is doing the same thing as having actual sex with her,” but I always assumed that fantasy women didn’t count. It’s OK to lust after the character that Raquel Welch plays in 1,000,000 B.C., as long as your fantasy doesn’t extend (!) to including Ms. Welch herself (going to her trailer on the set, taking her to the Academy Awards, etc.) I don’t see how having mind-sex with an imaginary someone named Oog from the year 1,000,000 B.C. is a sin.
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen
