sgt schwartz, the linkn to the WAPS site is pretty good, but for all intents and purposes promotion in the Air Force relies on individual study of a professional development guide (general Air Force information, history, tactics, doctrine, and CBRNE response) and a set of career development courses (CDC’s) that are specific to each career field. The highest score possible is 100 points per test. That is really the only portion of the WAPS system the member has immediate control of. Annual performance reports play a big part in the formula, but it can be difficult to control these, they are subjectively written (for those still in the Air Force, I know the forms changed recently and I am not sure if they say the same things they used to) based on a comparison of the individual to their peers in the unit. If you are in a unit of super stars, it can be hard to get the maximum points from annual performance reports. Time in service and time in grade play a part, but aren’t a show stopper. Certain decorations count for points as well, but again aren’t a show stopper. BTW, thanks for your service as well. Fugazi, Those tests are hard. 70’s are awesome, I see that you obviously studied since you were able to make Tech in 14 years.
Rand Mcnally, a few SNCO’s in the career feild develop the testing criteria, but the Operational Measurement Squadron write the actual tests. In theory, the SMEs (subject matter experts) for each career field write tests and then the OMS rewrites them, but that really doesn’t happen. My wife is a USAF MSgt (Ret) who worked the project for her career feild and she ranted every day she was involved that the OMS was changing the intent of what she was asking. The PFE (now changed to the Professional Development Guide) tests are written by a group of Cheifs from all the different MAJCOMs who decide what goes in there by sending out surveys to a random sample of NCOs and then promptly ignoring the results.
little nemo, have you ever served as an enlisted member in the military? The greivous sin is that if he would have been promoted, their would have been a deserving person that didn’t cheat who wasn’t promoted. THAT is what pissed me off. Guys that study their asses off aren’t promoted because someone else sheated on the test. This hasn’t happened to me personally, but I have three friends that were passed over during a huge cheating scandal a few years ago. They are still trying to overcome that one extra year they culd have had a stripe on because a few asshats thought they would cheat.
carnalk, it is funny that you mention that. I noticed it last night and realized that it is because sgt schwartz and I are used to following the rules. When an authority figure tells us to junp, we ask “How high, sir?”
That’s the thing though. It depends on what you mean by “the United States Army.” If his immediate supervisor busted him and elected to not put anything about it in his file, then the promotion board would be unaware of his past cheating attempts and wouldn’t take that into consideration. Even if there were something in his file about it, if it were in a “sealed” portion of his records they still wouldn’t have knowledge of it or take it into consideration.
Without more information, I’d guess his supervisor deemed him worthy, but that’s not the same thing as the USArmy, i.e. the promotion board, deeming him worthy with full knowledge of all the facts.
Whatever though, he sounds like a pretty good troop and he regrets what he did and he’s proud he made it the right way, so that’s cool.
It isn’t judgemental to negatively comment on mutually agreed upon negative actions. I do not judge “who is the better man,” but in the case of promotions testing for the United States Military, I am onviously the better of the two. I never cheated. I do applaud him for admitting it, especially in the thread where he announces his promotion, but he really shouldn’t have cheated. Period.
levdrakon, you hit the nail on the head asking what was meant by “the US Army” thought he was ready for promotion. I am willing to bet that he meant US Army coprorately, i.e. the bureaucracy rather than the rank and file Army. The bureaucracy forgives and forgets more easily than the guy who can’t buy a home or fill his kids’ college funds because he was cheated out of a promotion. YMMV
The thing you have to remember is that military promotions are very similar to college admittance. There are a large number of “applicants” and a limited number of slots. In all services, after a certain level (E3 in the Navy) you are competing with everyone in the service who does your job. They take everyone’s points (from the test, awards, evaluations, years in service, etc.) and the number of available slots. If there are 100 hundred slots, the 100th highest score is made the cutoff score. Everyone above that gets promoted. The number of slots depends mostly on retention. The more people stay in, the tougher it gets to get promoted. This leads to some fairly predictable trends sometimes.
I got out of the Navy after six years as an E6. While that is considered good, it was not all that unusual in my rate (nuclear ET). When I processed out I had to go over to the air base next door due to a network outage at the Navy office. The clerks there were amazed because a six year E6 is pretty rare in the air world. The big difference is the retention levels are so much different. I am not sure about the Marines and the Army, but the quality of life in Navy sucks compared to the Air Force. Pear Harbor and Hickam Air Base were right next door and the difference was obvious every time you went over. The facilities were nicer, the housing was better, and probably one of the big ones, you did not spend half you nights away from home even when you weren’t deployed. Now with the Army having retention issues, it makes sense that the promotion scores have dropped.
If you want to hear complaints about promotions, talk to E6s in nuclear navy jobs in the early to mid 90s. Before that, you competed with everyone in the same rate as you. If you were a nuclear electronics tech, you competed with all techs. Since nuke ratings have higher prerequisites and tougher schools (no multiple choice allowed, all essay tests), this skewed the results and you ended up with way too many high rank NCOs in those jobs (seven years to E7 was not that rare from what I was told). Then they broke up the promotions by actual job and the torrent of nuclear chiefs dried up to a trickle. I knew guys who had been stuck at E6 for well over ten years. The situation was finally starting to normalize when I left in ‘99.
Exactly, Strassia hit the nail on the head. Different rates or MOS’s only have so many slots open at a time for each round of promotions. While I was in the Navy I made it to E5 two weeks before my 3rd anniversary. The Damage Control field was wide open.
My brother was in the Army around the same time. He was in a medical speciality that was so small he quit after 13 years and was still only an E5.
Sorry you didn’t make it the first few times Schwarts, the people who did were a teensy bit better than you. So suck it up and do better. For cheating you should have been busted a stripe.
I don’t understand the promotion system in the Air Force, because I am an Army Non-commissioned Officer. I don’t work with any Airmen, hence the question. If one of my Soldiers came to me to ask me how to get promoted in the Air Force, I would try to understand the Air Force promotion system, but I would also try to retain the person in the Army.
Further, none of the points counted, as my PT test had expired, and I had retested twice since. My weapons card had expired and I had requalified with my M-16 and added the points from that one. So, none of the points that I attempted to cheat with were used.
Thanks for the info billyb0b, I knew that written tests were involved somehow, but I really didn’t know how. Annual reports (NCOER’s) are considered important in the Army, but now it has become that some of the bullets are inflated just to keep the good, not great Soldiers even with their peers. There is an effort to change that and subjective comments on the NCOER are usually not considered. Quantifiable, objective comments carry the most weight even if they are not as strong. But thanks for the information.
Also, to those that want to trash me for trying to cheat, I will admit that it was wrong. I knew it at the time, both times. After I got caught the second time, I had a man to man with the senior NCO in my unit. We discussed the effect it could have on my career, the Army, and the other junior soldiers in my unit. I finally understood that it could effect more then myself. The f**ked up thing is that he even agreed that I should be promoted based upon my strength in my job, but the PT and weapon scores were the baseline for the Army overall. I developed a plan to improve my PT score, and have. I have purchased a handgun to practice marksmanship fundamentals (I can’t afford to buy my own assault rifle) and those were the only two areas that I had not achieved maximum points in. I learned from it. It may come to affect me later in my career, but I will be more understanding if I have a Soldier that I discover got a few points that he didn’t earn for push-ups or sit-ups and will try to mentor him the way that I was.
There are ways to add points to your PT test and weapons qualification without earning them. I will not admit to the presence nor absence of an accomplice.
Schwartz is close enough to my real name. My date of rank is 1 July. I don’t know what you expect. I don’t want to post my real name for the same reason your first name is not Bear. You can PM me if you want my real name and to see it on HRC.
I don’t want to insult you,because you are someone I hold in high regard, having been in the military and all. But don’t let yourself think, for even a minute that everyone is perfect. You guys have to work as a team. Do you think the team is going to be stronger with you thinking your the better man? That’s not how teams work. I’ll just leave it at that. All of the men that I have known that survived war did so because they loved each other and wanted to see thier brothers(and sisters) come home.
Had you not asked the question, I wouldn’t even have thought about it. Also note that I specifically said:
As far as any other comparison of the two, I don’t know.
Never did I say that I was perfect.
I do love my brothers and sisters in arms, in fact that is why I started the thread. If I didn’t care, I would have let it slip by and said the OP to myself.
Yes, a team is much stronger when the individual members know their strengths and weaknesses. Teams work better when you can honestly identify the place you need to be. I’ll just leave it at that.
There two ways that I have knowledge of people getting in trouble for, Dudley:
Find out the questions on the test before an individual takes the test, by whatever means available.
Studying together is considered cheating by the Air Force. In fact, even sharing notes or a high-lighted copy of a study guide is cheating.
I suppose one could try to change official records for medals and performance reoprts, but that would require accomplices. The Air Force routinely publicizes the cases that are substaniated do deter others. Why do you ask?
[sub]What’s that? I couldn’t hear you. Speak into the [del]microphone[/del] button on my shirt. Ignore the wires running to the tape recorder. [/sub]
Thanks for being on my side. There are things in the posts here that I choose to overlook. Now, I have to address this. But first, I must ask, are you trying to see fireworks? If that is the case, you won’t get much here. I understand billyb0b’s position that he is the better man for never having cheated. He may never want me on his team because he may feel that I will try to short cut the mission. I would welcome him to my team because he never has cheated.
OTOH, he may need me to lay down fire to cover his movement. I shot 28 out of 30 on the 9mm range yesterday. At that time I may be the better man. He wins for integrity. I may win if I have to do a litter carry to get him out of a firefight. I know I should defend myself as being at least equal to billyb0b, but I feel in appropriate context we each have our strengths.
sgt schwartz I would be happy to have you on the team. Our tee time is 0800 tomorrow. Oh, wait. Never mind.
Really though, I think you and I said about the same thing in our last two posts. Especially the no fireworks thing. BTW, if I haven’t said it yet: congratulations on making it the right way and PUNCH (even though it’s a little late).
