Shakespeare on Afghanistan

[LouisB]

I’ve never ventured into this forum before now; please be gentle with me.

My sister has a dear friend who reached an exalted rank as an air force officer; she has always spoken of him as if he were a true Renaissance man; an intellectual with a wonderful educational background and a very wide range of interests. At any rate, she admires him greatly, as did her late husband. She had lunch with him recently and was very distressed to learn that his mind is slipping; he is well over 90 years of age. Even so, she asked him his opinion of the situation in the middle east and he told her to read Shakespeare on the subject. She’s baffled and I’m baffled.

Can anyone suggest anything of Shakespeare’s that has resonance with the current middle east situation?

I think many of Shakespeare’s reflections on war itself apply, but I wonder if there is something more specific the man had in mind.

Any inputs at all will be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Marley23]

Right now I have to admit I’m stumped. And is Afghanistan considered part of the Middle East? Whether yes or no, I don’t think Shakespeare ever voiced a policy view on the subjects. I don’t know what character or situation he might be thinking of, but my first guess is that there might be something in one of the history plays and I’m not the most familiar with them.

[Sage_Rat]

Romeo & Juliet?

If only they’d let those darn kids bone, all the fighting coulda ended.

[The_Amazing_Hanna]

But if the cause be not good,
the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make;
when all those legs and arms and heads,
chopped off in a battle,
shall join together at the latter day,
and cry all, ‘We died at such a place;’
some swearing, some crying for a surgeon,
some upon their wives left poor behind them,
some upon the debts they owe,
some upon their children rawly left.

I am afeard there are few die well that die in a battle;
for how can they charitably dispose of any thing
when blood is their argument?

From Henry V.

[iamnotbatman]

As you say, “I think many of Shakespeare’s reflections on war itself apply.” AFAIK, Shakespeare never directly addressed or made reference to Afghanistan. It is notoriously difficult to pin down Shakespeare’s geographic intimations. Geographical knowledge at the time was poor, and most references merely play upon stereotypes anyways. “Amazons”, “Indians”, “Cythians”, “Cataians”, “Turks”, “Saracens”, and “Tartars” are mentioned by Shakespeare, as well as references to King Mede and of course Alexander the Great are made, but nothing particularly relevant or enlightening stands out to me.

[2Fiona]

Don’t suppose he could be referring to the Merchant of Venice" wrt anti semitism?

[Autolycus]

Is this the only evidence he’s lost his marbles? I’ve heard sane men say much stranger things.

[LouisB]

@Autolycus

Is this the only evidence he’s lost his marbles? I’ve heard sane men say much stranger things.

Apparently, he slides in and out. I’ve never met the man myself but I’ve heard about him for years. I’ll have to ask my sister but I think I remember her saying that he used to quote a lot of Kipling; I wonder if he didn’t mean Kipling when he said Shakespeare.

[Marley23]

@iamnotbatman

AFAIK, Shakespeare never directly addressed or made reference to Afghanistan.

The name of the country does not appear in any of his plays. Shakespeare was not one to make policy statements in general and he was careful not to offend the powerful people who supported his company. It’s possible to interpret much of what he wrote in a lot of ways, which doesn’t negate what the Air Force officer said. But it does make it hard to tease out what he meant.

[ThelmaLou]

Amazing Hanna nailed it.

[Peremensoe]

@Marley23

And is Afghanistan considered part of the Middle East?

By topography and history, I’d call Afghanistan part of Central Asia.

I think the Middle East is properly Arabia, Mesopotamia, the Levant, and Anatolia, relatively compact regions with ancient relationships among them.

But the term seems to be sometimes lately used in reference to all the largely-Muslim countries (plus Israel) west of India, even all the way across Africa (the absurd concept of “Greater Middle East” includes Morocco), and the Eastern Orthodox Caucasus too. I suppose Greece and Kazakhstan will be in the Middle East soon, too.

@LouisB

I wonder if he didn’t mean Kipling when he said Shakespeare.

That would be a rather different message, wouldn’t it?

Remember it’s ruin to run from a fight:
So take open order, lie down, and sit tight,
And wait for supports like a soldier.
Wait, wait, wait like a soldier . . .

When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An’ go to your Gawd like a soldier.

[Marley23]

@spark240

By topography and history, I’d call Afghanistan part of Central Asia.

So would I.

[LouisB]

@Marley23

So would I.

Well, so would I if I had thought about it; it didn’t look exactly right even when I typed it. And yes, Kipling would throw a different ball into the game. Further, I agree that Henry V is about as good as it gets so far as what I’m looking for goes; I sent that passage to my sister and I’m grateful that Amazing Hanna sent it our way. If the man slips and slides the way my sister says he does, it’s unlikely anyone will really know what he had in mind unless he has a moment of lucidity and explains it. It’s tragic when a man of his accomplishments comes to the end of his life in such sad condition; I’m sure he would have preferred to go out in a blaze of glory or at least in a blaze.

Thanks for the inputs; I think I’ll spend a little more time lurking in this forum so don’t be surprised if you catch me hiding behind something.

[pepperlandgirl]

The OP apparently doesn’t know many Shakespeare scholars/devoted fans, who make comments like that all of the time. Every problem or major conflict has a solution in Shakespeare. They never go on to clarify, but it’s always something like what The Amazing Hanna posted

[iamnotbatman]

Well, usually you can do a lot better than those Henry V lines, which seem to speak to War in general, not to the “graveyard of empires” history that has long plagued Afghanistan, which I don’t think Shakespeare ever addressed.

[The_Amazing_Hanna]

Here’s another one I considered:

Fierce fiery warriors fought upon the clouds,
In ranks and squadrons and right form of war,
Which drizzled blood upon the Capitol.

(From Julius Caesar).

This one about not being able to stop doing something because of all the effort you’ve put in already:

I am in blood
Stepp’d in so far, that, should I wade no more,
Returning were as tedious as go o’er.

(From MacBeth).

Henry IV had some advice for his son, Henry V, on his deathbed. He’d make a fine spin doctor if he hadn’t been a king.

Therefore, my Harry,
Be it thy course to busy giddy minds
With foreign quarrels; that action, hence borne out
May waste the memory of the former days.

[Marley23]

You can find something in Shakespeare to support almost any opinion if you try hard enough, but I would be very hesitant to take him at his word on Middle Eastern affairs. Or for that matter, history. He was a storyteller first, a businessman second, and a historian, I don’t know, 73rd.