Sharon, Abbas: What the hell?

The BBQ Pit
41

The majority of people on both “sides” of this issue crave peace. All sane people crave peace, to raise children, to worship God, to walk to the store, and back.

It is, as always, the fanatics who are adamant, who value a flag or an agenda above a child. They are the damned, and they will drag us all down with them. For Isreal, for Palestine, for Greater Serbia, for Chenya,…the list never seems to grow shorter.

Heres what I think, and wish I didn’t: there will be no road map, no “Palestinian” state. No such thing could exist except as a refugee camp with borders. There will be Israel. It will be occupied by persons of two distinct ethnic derviations and religions. And they will manage to get along, barely.

And it will only happen when enough good and decent people on both “sides” scream “ENOUGH!! No More!” The Isrealis have every advantage in power and metal, the blood will be shed mostly by the “Palestinians”. A man who will fire a rocket to take out an enemy knowing full well that innocent bystanders are at risk has no moral superiority whatsoever, no more than, and no less than, a suicide bomber. Once you accept “collateral damage”. you have surrendered all claim to honor.

They will fight it out, and the blood will flow. And when the “Palestinians” are entirely exhausted, they will accept a second class citizenship in Israel. They have no other real option.

The only good news is that the fanatics will have killed each other.

Maybe thats what “The meek shall inherit the earth” means.

I’m a pessimist, and I love being wrong. I’m not.

42

You’re not pessimistic enough. The situation you describe will, in all probability, simply keep producing new fanatics to replace the dead ones.

43

Elucidator, what you describe would be no Jewish state and that is not going to be acceptable to Israel; now a loose federation of states as a greater Israel-Palestine, made up of partners that share currency, that share tax revenues, have federal responsibilty for equal educational opportunities throughout the region, that have open borders, but are still able to have distinctly Islamic and Jewish flavors within their own governances … that could someday be.

I’m just going to brainstorm here.

Sharon is now willing to move towards a Palestinian state. If he was able to bring home actual verifiable security then the vast majority would re-elect him forever and willingly give up most of the settlements except a few concentration near the border. Probably a deal close to CD2 or even Taba could again be forged eventually. If his baby step of outpost dismantlement had been met with some demonstration of will to take on the terrorists and deliver a halt of violence by force if need be (and sooner or later it will need be) then he’d have met that with bigger moves form the Israeli side.

But Abbas doesn’t have the power (or backbone) to do so, it is said. He’d be killed. The same was said of Arafat except by those who believed that he directly supported the violence. The US isn’t welcome to step in and deliver either. Who else has the power to deliver and what would motivate them to do so?

The pressure needs to come from other Arab countries and it needs to be more than words. But that’s as far as I can take it. Arab countries sending in police risks their getting entangled in conflicts with Israelis … too risky. Any ideas?

44

Ideas? If only. I am as unencumbered by clues as everyone else. This kind of situation draws evil men like shit draws flies. The unwillingness of Israel’s Arab neighbors to get involved in a war with Israel may be the only positive development in many years of ongoing horror.

I hope you are right about Sharon, but there is ample reason for doubt. He may very well be willing to appear willing, knowing that Palistinian fanatics will never allow the situation to develop to the point where he has to come across. He and Hamas are locked in an alliance of mutual hatred, and he has GeeDubya neatly pinned to his own words and deeds. After all, is he not fighting “terror”?

I dearly wish I had something more positive to say. I dearly wish anyone did. In the end, I think the maniacs will have thier day, and the Palestinians will lose. They have nothing whatever to oppose Israels military clout, save thier willingness to self-sacrifice. They will fight to exhaustion and defeat, and be forced to accept whatever sop the Israelis are willing to permit them.

45

First, I want to issue a word of caution about the simple-minded view that once the occupation ends, there will be automatic peace. Sure, that is what the PA and Hamas say, but I will believe it when PA newspaper stops reporting on “martyrdom attacks in occupied Afula.” If the occupation includes Afula, it includes Tel Aviv as well. Which is why I back by my idea of end of occupation plus military assurance plus the big-ass border.

The good news in Israel is that Sharon has made a government out of the shakiest of alliances. It is about as far right-wing as it can go, and I don’t think the Israeli public would tolerate any more rightward shifts (total reoccupation, “transfer” of Arabs out of the territories). So, any pressure on the government forces it to the middle.

This will have one of two effects. Either his government will fall and be replaced by a more concilliatory one, or he will be able to head an activist government. Narrow governments, even right wing ones, get far more accomplished than unity governments. This is best characterized by the successes of the Begin and Barak governments in making peace and the failure of the Meir 1968, the Shamir, and previous Sharon unity governments.

The problem is that the settlers and ultra-Orthodox factions are perfectly willing to give up political muscle to head the exact ministries that they care about – the housing ministries in charge of the settlements and the civil ministries in charge of domestic laws like weddings, immigration, and conversion. They play the game really well. This stands as a huge obstacle in getting any real work done on the ground – for every settlement dismantled, a half-dozen settlers go and park a few mobile homes on three hilltops in the territories. Until a true, honest freeze on settlements is established, nothing will move forward.

If this current government falls, the best we can hope for is a secular coalition between Shinui, Likud, and Labor, but I don’t think that will ever happen. I think it would tear Israel apart with the Orthodox completely without political power.

46

Bullshit and you know it. Fire a rocket into a crowded street or at a car whose occupants you cannot itemise and killing people is not an accident, it is culpable recklessness at best, callous indifference.

Shameful response.

47

Once again, an absolutely textbook example of what I meant with my (exaggerated) statement that nobody says boo about Palestinian terrorist attacks.

The side that gets condemned is not the side that refused the cease-fire, that is sabotaging the peace talks, the suicide bombers who target civilians. It’s the side that wanted a cease-fire, that is willing to compromise, that is taking the first few steps towards dismantling some of the settlements.

That is the side that gets condemned.

As always.

Regards,
Shodan

48

This poll (on Fox :eek:) indicates that 2/3 of Israeli citizens disapprove of Sharon’s recent counterterrorist actions.

49

I love the conserva-fantasy that everyone is constantly persecuting Isreal and applauding the Hamas suicide bombers. the fact that it is supported by nil makes it even more hilarious. The fact that i don’t think Isreal should be firing rockets into populated buildings makes me a terrorist supporter? That is worse than the Iraq war/patriot garbage logic that was being spewed earlier this year.

50

No. Condemning only one side, and giving the other side a pass makes you look like a terrorist supporter, at least by default.

“Everyone” isn’t persecuting Israel. “Terrorists” are persecuting Israel. Not “everyone” is applauding the Hamas bombers. But not “everyone” is condemning them, either.

Israel has a right to exist. She also has the right to kill those who try to kill her. Sometimes she steps over the line. When she does, she deserves rebuke.

But when do the terrorists not deserve rebuke?

But the peace process isn’t going to go anywhere so long as there are people working to sabotage it by killing Israelis. Hamas has already made it clear that they will not abide by a cease-fire, nor will they negotiate.

So Israel tries to kill them. Abbas clearly cannot stop the terrorism. Hamas is not going to stop on its own.

What other choice is there?

Regards,
Shodan

51

Shodan, I am amazed that you can consider that condemnation of blowing innocent civilians to smithereens by suicide bombers isn’t taken as read by participants in these debates. It’s totally fucking horrendous. But the terrorists are the motherfuckers whose raison d’etre is to bomb, maim and kill, not the liberal democracy supported by the West.

Also your comparisons are unfair: the Israeli government is not to be compared to Hamas, but to the PA - which, despite accusations of collusion, alleged unwillingness, and clear inability to curb the problem, are not currently active aggressors, particularly with the recent marginalisation of Arafat. Hamas should be compared to, say, hardline armed settlers like Rabin’s assassin.

The terrorists are also the dumb part of the equation: unless there are highly exceptional circumstances, they’re going to continue their catalogue of murder. It is up to the intelligent participants - i.e. the government(s) to create circumstances that are less rather than more likely to protect their citizens. Launching missiles into crowded streets, for whatever reason, is not likely to calm things down. Hence the criticism.

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I condemn both sides by default, ergo my profile. (which was changed last time someone suggested that because i don’t start a pit thread everytime someone blows themselves up i’m a terrorist supporter.)

and excuse me for thinking that Isreal should be held to a higher standard, what with the democracy and working government and all.

53

As noted by any number of people, including myself, the great impediment to a resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli problem is that the levers to effect a resolution are held by the fanatics.

Self immolation in a bus full of Israelis is clearly not an acceptable act; but it is the act of a fanatic. Likewise, a military chopper strike in the middle of a busy city street is not acceptable either. Tragically it has been the act of a supposedly responsible government; albeit one that has combined ethnic hatred with a lack of other politically doable options. The Hammas bombers certainly have been condemned as murderous, irrational, dangerous fire eaters. When a democratic, liberal, Western state takes analogous action its culpability is, however, greater than the culpability of the fanatic.

I have trouble seeing a distinction between the fanatic who wants Jews driven into the sea and the fanatic who wants all non-Jews driven beyond the Jordan. Both are irresponsible, dangerous, reprehensible and, in the last analysis, mad and self deluding.

Right now the Israeli government can agree to almost anything in principle in the secure knowledge that any effort to reciprocate on the Palestinian side will result in a new barrage of terror by Hammas, which gives Israel a legitimate way out, or a civil war within the Palestinian community, which goes a long way toward achieving the Jewish fanatic’s ambition of eliminating the Palestinians west of the Jordan.

As far as what is to be done now, it seems to me that the essential first step is to give the embryo of a Palestinian State the breathing room and wherewithal to start to take effective police control of the West Bank and Gaza. Israel needs to quit its assassination program, it needs to let the local government put together a police and security force, it needs to quit taking pot shots at random farmers, it need to ease off on provocative patrols, it needs to generally quit aggravating the Palestinians. Maybe Israel needs to pull the West Bank settlers out and put in an air tight border and let the Palestinians fight it out among themselves.

54

To do this as regards Hamas, they would need to die.

Abbas cannot do this. Any attempt to crack down on the terrorists would get him almost immediately kicked out and/or make him as much a target for assassination as any Israeli on a bus.

Almost your entire post is taken up with what Israel needs to do. The PA needs to do what Israel expects - stop terrorism. Otherwise, Israel does everything to help the peace process, and gets nothing in return. This is not a recipe for a lasting peace.

Unfortunately, nothing else is either.

Hamas isn’t targetting other Palestinians (except to short-circuit the peace process). They are killing Israelis. Give them a secure base, where they don’t have to worry about Israel killing them, and where it is clear that Abbas cannot or will not do anything about them either, and it just gives them a better platform from which to stage terrorist attacks against Israel.

Regards,
Shodan

55

Just how do you propose that Abbas do that? This is serious. Clearly the fanatics need to be controlled. How is it to be done is Abbas doesn’t have the political or police power to do it? Letting Israel just helter shelter blow up hunks of the West Bank and Gaga simply increased Hamas’s appeal and thus increases the danger to Israel. It seems to me that the ball is in Israel’s court in terms of giving Abbas a fighting chance to control his own fanatics.

56

I agree - and I suspect the Israelis agree - that the ball is in Israel’s court. This is because Abbas has made it clear that he cannot or will not do anything - not simply because he doesn’t have the police power, but because if he tries, the terrorists will kill him, or he will lose popular support, or whatever you meant by “not having the political power” to do anything about Palestinian terrorism.

I agree entirely - the fanatics need to be controlled. But Abbas isn’t going to control them. So, as we agree, the ball is back with the Israelis.

So their choices are:
[ul]
[li]Do nothing. This communicates to the terrorists that terrorism is a zero-cost option. [/li][li]Continue to negotiate with the PA. From which they gain essentially nothing, since Abbas and the PA cannot or will not end the terrorism. Both this option, and the previous one, will lead to an increase in terrorist attacks, as Hamas and its like attempt to sabotage the peace process. [/li][li]Withdraw, and let Abbas try to crack down on terrorism. He either will try, and fail, because as we agree he will quickly lose power if he acts against Hamas and the other terrorists, or not try, remain in power, and Israel gains nothing by it. This option is likely to lead to increased terrorism as well, as Hamas tries to goad Israel into re-invading Palestinian territory and/or tries to provoke a war between Israel and the PA. [/li][li]Try to kill the terrorists, either being as careful as possible to minimize collateral damage, in which case they will be condemned for not allowing Abbas to fulfill his role as PA leader as well as not doing enough to protect human rights, or not being as careful as possible, in which case they will be condemned for violating human rights.[/ul][/li]
FWIW, my idea would be for Israel to negotiate as much as possible with the PA, and kill as many terrorists as they can manage. I suppose I would agree that they should be more careful about the others that get hurt in the process, not because they should try to curry favor with the average Palestinian on the street (who is a lost cause) but because it is the right thing to do.

There are three separate entities involved here - Israel, the PA, and the terrorists. The terrorists are trying to veto any rapprochement between the PA and Israel with violence. So Israel should pursue a cease-fire with the PA, but not with the terrorists, who have rejected any goal short of the destruction of Israel.

It probably won’t work. I have no illusions that this is a new idea in the Middle East, or that people who have based their entire political careers on “Death to the Zionists!” are going to suddenly begin to make nice. But the only ones who will get peace are the ones who want it. The terrorists don’t, and therefore won’t get it. The average Palestinian man on the street is going to have to make his mind up that Israel has the right to exist.

Regards,
Shodan

57

What the fuck does this mean? Do you have any evidence on how the “average Palestinian” feels? Have you every been to Israel? Do you have lots of Palestinian friends?

Yes, some certainly feel that Israel has no right to exist. Guess what? – Some Israelis (and Jews elsewhere) feel that Palestinians should be eradicated from Israel.

Don’t paint with a broad brush unless you have some cites/evidence to back it up. Otherwise you just come across as a bigoted, ignorant ass.

Regards indeed…

58

How the average Palestinian feels: A pew Research poll http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-06-03-pew_x.htm

Easy with your ignorant asses.