Of course it is. I’m never quite sure how to explain myself better when someone has missed my point so completely, but I’ll try:
Sciguy said that his ignorance was the result of being raised Catholic. I pointed out that being raised Catholic has nothing to do with it, and merely used my high school and college as examples of a Catholic upbringing having exactly the opposite effect. I did not say or imply that knowledge is the result of being raised Catholic, because that wouldn’t be any more true than sciguy’s statement (which, on preview, I see he has explained).
Any clearer?
Gotcha. No apology necessary, it was merely a misunderstanding. But thanks.
Well, even though I am more than aware that Catholics are Christians (both my parents are lapsed Catholics), the first thing I think of when I hear “Christian” is the average Protestant church–Methodists, Baptists, Episcopalians, etc. It’s just a connotative difference, but still, that’s what I think. So no, I wouldn’t be offended because I’d say the same thing.
I also don’t think of Orthodox Christians and Mormons as being “Christians,” I’m a lot more likely to just use the church name in those cases. Not sure why.
Man with the Jesuit education checking in, since Misnomer wasn’t able to fill that position.
Although I no longer associate with the Catholic church due to my personal differences with their philosophy, I was raised and educated as a Catholic, and it always was and continues to be a pet peeve of mine when people exclude Catholics from the rest of Christianity.
However, as davenportavenger just alluded to, I’d always run into difficulty when someone I’m discussing this with asks me why I don’t consider Mormons to be Christians. I guess the best answer I can come up with is that Mormons don’t believe in the same Christ that other Christians do. Whatever differences the Catholic church may have with other denominations, we all believe that Jesus walked the earth approximately 2,000 years ago, and has yet to make a return.
Based on that description, I tend to see things like this (and I don’t claim this to be accurate by any means – it’s just how my mind works):
Judaism: Messiah = 0 earthly visits
Christianity: Messiah = 1 earthly visit
Mormonism: Messiah = 2 earthly visits (or more? I know so little about Mormonism)
At any rate, that’s why I feel Catholocism deserves to be lumped in with the remainder of Christianity, no matter how different the observance of certain customs may be within the denominations.
Feel free to point out the error of my ways – I can take it (I think).
This is also my experience. I don’t know how many times I’ve talked with Latin Americans who assert that Catholics aren’t Christians, where it got to the point where I just have to point out to them that that simply isn’t the case, and ask them to show me how we aren’t. I came to realize that this could be because of the discourse in the non-Christian churches they’d converted to, as well as the fact that being Catholic in Latin America is not really like having some specific belief–it’s like the default, everyone’s born that way. So when the Evangelicals, etc., come around, they say “Do you want to become a Christian?” It’s as though before, their “religion field” was null, and the proslytizers enter in the data “Christian.”
That’s news to me. But then I’m not old enough to know about it.
I’m LDS, and I’m not sure what you mean by “Mormons don’t believe in the same Christ.” We believe in the Jesus Christ depicted in the New Testament–the only begotten Son of God, resurrected after the crucifixion, our Savior, who has not yet come again. The extra part is that we believe that some of the “other sheep not of this fold” were the people in the Book of Mormon, who were visited after the Resurrection. We do reject the creeds and councils as not being inspired of God (though the best endeavors of men) but we don’t reject any of the Bible.
I don’t have time to get detailed, as I’m supposed to be making dinner and running off to a meeting, but if you have questions feel free to email me.
Perhaps your friend has the same beliefs as my dad:
Protestants and Baptists are Christians. Mormons are silly but harmless Christians. Calthotics are members of a cult religion created by evil to control people and turn them away from the true word of God.
That’s what I get for not doing my homework. I was under the impression for some reason that Mormons believed that a second coming had occured, rather than that Jesus had visited North America following his resurrection. I retract my comparison, with apologies.
I think the reason is because while Catholics and Christians share the same core beliefs and roots, their “style of worship” and “church life” differs a lot.
If I call myself a Catholic, then you will think that I attend mass, underwent child baptism and have a lot of ritual days and festivals to observe. One won’t get the same impression if I say that I am Christian - but there are so many Christian churches around that the “Christian” itself is a bit ambigious.
So I guess there’s nothing wrong in calling a Catholic “Christian”.
My cousin dated a guy who was hardcore Irish-Catholic. 23 and a sophomore in college and he honestly believed (and argued) that Catholics weren’t Christians.
Actually, saying I’m Christian, not Catholic, would be a reasonably accurate way to describe me. Like skammer, I’m Episcopalian. davenportavenger, when I was growing up I was told I wasn’t Catholic or Protestant, which led to me getting beat up by both groups of kids. My church has more in comon with Catholic traditions than main-line Protestant and we got our start independently from Protestantism. For that matter, the fellow I’m dating is also a Christian, but neither Catholic nor Protestant. He’s an Armenian Christian, which pre-dates the split between Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity and is distinct from both.
On the other hand, I don’t know the social melieu in which sciguy operates. I know I once Pitted someone who kept insisting Catholics weren’t Christians (she no longer posts here) and I can see how the distinction could be offensive. I’ve also heard a man coming back from a mission trip brag about converting a Catholic to Christianity. sciguy, since this guy’s your friend, I assume he’s not the sort of person who thinks Catholics aren’t Christians. If that’s the case, perhaps he was just looking for a quick way to describe his fiance without going into a long explanation. Trust me, as someone who’s best friend is actually Zwinglian (sp?), that can be a valid excuse.
I’m not a Christian so this is probably not relevent but I thought that being a Christian meant “baptism and ritual days and festivals to observe”. Oh and that stuff about loving God…seems Catholics like him as much as any other flavour do.
What would I know?..Christmas means Santa. He is a guy with a beard who brings joy!)
Your phrasing in that first paragraph is troubling, but I’m assuming you didn’t mean it the way it sounds. The thing is that a lot of Christian denominations besides the Roman Church have pretty similar styles of worship. Lutherans, Episcopalians (Anglicans), Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and a lot of other little churches floating around that are in schism with the Catholic and Orthodox communions.
Given the numbers just of Catholics and Eastern Orthodox out there, my (uneducated) guess would be that the majority of Christians worship in some way more resembling a Latin Rite mass than a mainline American Protestant church service. It just seems odd to single out Catholics as the odd ones out because of that.
One slightly awkward thing about growing up in the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) denomination was the lack of an ideal adjective with which to refer to the denomination, analogous to “Catholic” or “Presbyterian” or “Baptist” or “Congregationalist.” The word “Disciples” got used sometimes, but so did “Christian”—as in, say, a “Christian church” as opposed to a Catholic or Baptist one. (Local churches affiliated with the Disciples of Christ are typically named “________ Christian Church”), but there are also plenty of churches not associated with the denomination that have “________ Christian Church” names.)
Once we had a temporary/substitute music director in my church who introduced himself saying, “I’m not Christian, I’m Catholic.” I’m still not sure whether he meant “Christian” in the denominational sense, or whether he was making a joke.
Oh yeah, this is a good point. That was what I think from my point of view. That why there’s quite a lot of confusion! So you see, there’s a difference from the way I see it, but that’s just my own viewpoint.
I suggest we just call both Christians and Catholics Christians and be done with it, but really, if I have my way, I’ll prefer “followers of Christ”.
I do, on occasion … there are elements of Protestant theology which are important to the way I approach my faith.
(And you’ll find plenty of them in Northern Ireland, although for somewhat different reasons … )
Generally, I’ll describe myself as “Christian”, and I’ll own up to being a specific variety of Christian (Church of England, Protestant, positive feelings towards the Broad Church Movement, occasional leanings towards ecumenism … ) if it’s relevant.
Despite certain (ahem) historical divergences of opinion between the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church, I don’t have any problems with regarding Catholics as Christians. (Though they may, on occasion, be capable of unChristian behaviour … just like any other Christian, including myself.)
