This weird festival that the shi’ites celebrated last week (which ceremonies were banned by the Saddam Hussein governmnet for 35 years): is it really idolatry? The people march though the streets, with men and boys gashing thier heads with knives, and beating themselves with chains! Does this amount to an idolotrous worship of Hussein (who was the descendent of Mohammed)?
Strange devotions…doe the Wahabis prohibit such display? :eek:
Hussein was Muhammed’s grandson. The Shi’ites, at least, don’t consider the Ashura idolotry. It’s more that they see Hussein as a role model and hero, and are mourning his martyrdom. I’m pretty sure the Wahabis would disagree, but the Wahabis don’t like Shiites anyway.
Yep. Wahabis DO regard Shi’ites ( and Sufis, both Sunni and Shi’a ) as idolatrous. They even regard celebrating the birth of Muhammed as idolatrous.
From the Shi’a point of view ( those that participate in such bloodlettings - it isn’t universal ) they are participating in a passion play to remind themselves of an honored leaders’ suffering for his faith ( as they see it ).
- Tamerlane
Sorry – I just wanted to be the first to weigh in on your choice of spelling in the title – which may or may not reflect the views of various participants here . . . .
Tamerlane: *Wahabis DO regard Shi’ites ( and Sufis, both Sunni and Shi’a ) as idolatrous. They even regard celebrating the birth of Muhammed as idolatrous. *
Much as some seventeenth-century English Puritans considered the celebration of Christmas idolatrous (e.g., “Mince Pies were Reliques of the Whore of Babylon”). Hard-line fundamentalists in any monotheistic religion tend to throw the word “idolatry” around a lot.
IANA Muslim (nor a scholar in the field), but isn’t the Sunni/Shiite divide more like the Catholic/Protestant one in Christianity (rather than like the Fundamentalist/Moderate divide implied here)?
Dani
NS: isn’t the Sunni/Shiite divide more like the Catholic/Protestant one in Christianity (rather than like the Fundamentalist/Moderate divide implied here)?
Yes, more or less. I was using the Wahhabis as the “fundamentalists” in that analogy, not Sunnis in general.
Actually, on thinking about it, I’d say that the Sunni/Shi’a divide is more like that between the Catholic Church and various sects of Eastern Christianity, rather than Western Protestantism: the split happened fairly early on in the development of the religion, and originated in a disagreement over leadership and authority, rather than in an internal reform movement per se. (Thoughts on that, Tamerlane?)
Can’t say I ever thought of it like that ( I do usually use the Catholic/Protestant example ), but really that’s a very astute take and I’d have to agree - that is a little closer of an analogy.
- Tamerlane
There is no comparison possible between this and the schisms in Christianity. It was in origin not a religious dispute and at the very basics it isn’t even nowadays, for the simple fact that there is no dispute whatsoever over the authority/contenance of Al Qur’an.
It was a political dispute about wether yes or no 'Ali was pointed out by Muhammed to succeed him and thus it surfaced already right after the death of Muhammed. The real divisioncame later and became as much as a fact after the battle of Siffin (657AD). Which led to the birth of the formation of the Kharidjites (who were Alides defected from the 'Alide side). 'Ali himself was murdered by one of them in 661AD.
The development of shiism (and its sects) as a religious mouvement is an other story.
When one wants to find a “comparison” with Christianity, I would say the most close to this comes when you would say that Shia Islam is more outspoken and emotional, like Catholicism, in comparison the Sunni Islam which is then more like Protestantism.
That is why you see these emotional Ashura scenes = compare it with Catholic Passion plays where people flog themselves and some even go as far as letting themselves be nailed on a cross.
But that is as far as I would go in “comparing” 
Salaam. A